09/29/07 10:37:04, Moroes crits you for 6018.

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Postby Fridmarr » Mon Oct 01, 2007 12:22 am

Drfeelgood wrote:
Galtea wrote:To my understanding, 490 def is simply where crits cap. However, regardless of your def skill, there is a chance, although incredibly small that you will still be crit. The chance past 490 def is a very very tiny fraction of a percent, but it is still there.


This is untrue. There is no supporting evidence for this kind of claim. Open your character sheet and mouse over your defense skill. Reduces your chance to be crit by 5.6% if you're at 490 defense. That's exactly the crit chance of mobs that are 3 levels higher than you (boss mobs). Barring extenuating circumstances (sitting, debuffs, abnormal crit rate) you cannot be crit while over 490 defense.


Exactly, it is threads like this that tend make folks believe there is a small chance. Because freaky things happen and folks post their combat log so it looks like a person with 490 defense got crit. Most of the time they can be explained away but not always, mostly due to the lack of information.
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Postby Belarkan » Mon Oct 01, 2007 1:39 am

Fridmarr wrote:Exactly, it is threads like this that tend make folks believe there is a small chance. Because freaky things happen and folks post their combat log so it looks like a person with 490 defense got crit. Most of the time they can be explained away but not always, mostly due to the lack of information.


Up to now, there's been some thread about that topic.
If there was a little chance that even with 490 def you got a critical hit, you'll see more than one threat per month. Really a lot.
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Postby Lore » Mon Oct 01, 2007 8:40 am

Belarkan wrote:
Fridmarr wrote:Exactly, it is threads like this that tend make folks believe there is a small chance. Because freaky things happen and folks post their combat log so it looks like a person with 490 defense got crit. Most of the time they can be explained away but not always, mostly due to the lack of information.


Up to now, there's been some thread about that topic.
If there was a little chance that even with 490 def you got a critical hit, you'll see more than one threat per month. Really a lot.


What if it was only a 0.01% chance, as the theory suggests?

That would be one in every 10,000 attacks against a tank with 490 defense, and then you have to factor in that then that person would have to:

a) Notice
b) Not shrug it off as just "Hmm, that was weird."
c) Take a screenshot
d) Post it on these forums

The fact is it's next to impossible to prove either way since it can't be reproduced reliably. So maybe there is a tiny chance to be crit/crushed/etc, maybe there isn't. Given my knowledge of programming, I'm inclined to believe it's very possible - that the system simply can't accept that a possibility could hold no place on the attack table.
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Postby Garwin » Mon Oct 01, 2007 8:56 am

it is possible that morose, being the dual weilding, garoting poisoning vanishing Butler that he is has a higher than average crit chance or indeed weapon skill

either of these 2 option would increase his crit chance on the the attack table and as such also explain why you got the shaft. I do no know if anyone has spent the time to test this however.

even so I also subscrib to the theory that you can not push crits and crushes totally off the table but they are infact extreamly rare akin to a 1 in 1000000 chance (perhaps a double attack test or something)
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Postby Agravaine » Mon Oct 01, 2007 10:57 am

Point of fact, there is some evidence, that screenshot for example.
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Postby Amran20 » Mon Oct 01, 2007 11:29 am

I can't see 3 crits happening at once on a 490+ def character without a sitdown. I mean, sitting = instacrit, and I could see 3 bogstroks each hitting you at the same time while sitting. And yeah, I made sure to get sit way the hell off my keyboard. Makes teabagging people harder, but what can I do? :(
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Postby Lore » Mon Oct 01, 2007 11:41 am

Agravaine wrote:Point of fact, there is some evidence, that screenshot for example.


The problem with screenshots like that is they leave too much question as to what "actually" happened. I could produce an unlimited amount of screenshots just like it. It's potential evidence, but not the hard, solid proof that the theory really needs to be proven. Maybe he bumped his sit button. Maybe he was wearing different gear. Unfortunately the only way to get a really solid screenshot proving that it's possible to be crit, while at the defense cap, without any extra debuffs or anything, would be to get a screenshot of the crit as it happens, with the character panel open. Since it's close to impossible to reproduce, that hasn't happened.
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Postby PsiVen » Mon Oct 01, 2007 12:24 pm

I find it hard to believe that any tank could fail to notice being crit. Do people not use SCT?

If I get crushed, I see a nice fat red number with ^^ brackets around it.

If I get crit, the number's even bigger with **! It might as well say
*** YOU JUST GOT CRIT!! ***

For example, when we were clearing to Shahraz Saturday night I thought one of the mobs had crit me for 700; it showed very obviously on my screen. In fact it was our MC'd feral druid.
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Postby Lore » Mon Oct 01, 2007 12:51 pm

PsiVen wrote:I find it hard to believe that any tank could fail to notice being crit. Do people not use SCT?

If I get crushed, I see a nice fat red number with ^^ brackets around it.

If I get crit, the number's even bigger with **! It might as well say
*** YOU JUST GOT CRIT!! ***

For example, when we were clearing to Shahraz Saturday night I thought one of the mobs had crit me for 700; it showed very obviously on my screen. In fact it was our MC'd feral druid.


I'm sure there's lots of tanks that could fail to notice being crit. The second step is more important for people like the ones that post on these forums: not just shrugging it off as something random and weird.
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Postby Bahamutkotd » Mon Oct 01, 2007 11:15 pm

i would almost bet you i tapped x or somthing stupid now that i think about it but din't think of that. Thanks for all the replys and sorry to necro bump
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Postby Belarkan » Tue Oct 02, 2007 3:56 am

Lore, there are some special cases in which you can be criticed with 490.
Most of the time, it's a mob that gets a buf increasing its agility hence, 490 isn't enough to be critic immune.

As for moroes, how can we exclude that the tank was backstabed since I think he reported he laged.

Anyway, even with 0.01% given the number of raids / groups doing instances around we'll have far more "I got crit" than we have today.
Chances would be like 0.0000001% which I'll think it could be:
- player's sitting
- player'ss backstabed
- threading (race concurence) issue on server side (just like chaman's purge can remove divine shield if it happens at the same time as divine shield is casted).

Edit:
Oh, I wonder also when we are stunned / bashed if we can get crushed / critical hit.
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Postby Everlight » Tue Oct 02, 2007 5:24 am

If you're stunned, you can be crushed. However the 490 Defense thing making you uncrittable is not dependent on any avoidances at all. You can be stunned, have your back turned, and be alt-tabbed browsing pron and you still won't be crit.

In virtually all of these cases, it's either a mob that has a higher than 5% crit (Malicious Instructors, Teremus the Devourer), a mob that has an Unbalancing Strike attack that reduces the victim's Defense (Instructor Razuvius), the victim accidentally hit their sit key (UNBIND IT NOW), or a Feral Druid nearby got mind controlled and buffed the mob with Leader of the Pack.

Especially since you saw three crits at the same time, this would indicate that you hit your sit key. Even if the chance of seeing a crit was 0.01%, the chance of getting a screenshot with three consecutive crits is literally one in one hundred billion.

Regarding whether people would notice, there are so many people crunching over figures in WWStats these days, you would notice the crit in there when you went back and looked at the logs. It would be seen.
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Postby Blutreich » Tue Oct 02, 2007 5:33 am

I believe another way to get crit is have your friendly neighborhood lycanthrope get MC and give the mobs LotP.
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Postby Gideon » Tue Oct 02, 2007 6:25 am

Everlight wrote:In virtually all of these cases, it's either a mob that has a higher than 5% crit (Malicious Instructors, Teremus the Devourer).


Glad someone mentioned Teremus.

Ofc, knowing all that didn't help me one bit when my GM quizzed me, tanking officer, on why one of our prot warriors got crit by a Magtheridon add.
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Postby Maulininis » Tue Oct 02, 2007 6:54 am

What about turning around? Was Moroes being moved or something?

I vividly remember my guilds first Karazhan run, but no screens. I was Ot, not MT at the time. Moroes. "Ok, when I am blinded, tank him facing away from him so he can't gouge you while I'm blinded and kill someone else"

I turn around.

Get crit 3 times straight.

I died.

Point being that if you were moving, perhaps turned just a little too side on?
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