Post Your Successes!

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Re: Post Your Successes!

Postby Flex » Fri Jul 12, 2013 11:48 am

The three steps would be:
Dungeon Finder: lower difficulty but more difficult than current heroics, personal loot system
Pre-Made: Challenging, requires communication, etc, group loot like current
Challenge: Class stacking, item level capped, valuable permanent and temporary cosmetic rewards, guaranteed random stat epic (Flex level) at the end for beating at least the Bronze timer
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Re: Post Your Successes!

Postby Sagara » Fri Jul 12, 2013 11:52 am

halabar wrote:
Sagara wrote:I wouldn't mind BOTH. Scenarios for the quick queue, quick fun, and 5-man for the better loot. And if that means we get three leveling dungeons for 6 scenarios or something like that.


But right now, scenarios are faster, more fun, and provide better loot.. and a quicker queue.. so who needs 5-mans?

The other benefit of scenarios is that they can be developed using more existing assets to tell parts of the story, so we can get more of them, and get new ones as needed. 5-man require a lot more effort and pull resources from other efforts. Much less of a loss if a scenario gets "old" compared to a 5-man.


Tanks and heals would like a few actually :-p But you're right, probably a handful tops during leveling.
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Re: Post Your Successes!

Postby Flex » Fri Jul 12, 2013 11:59 am

Also each zone would have at least one scenario and 5 man that is a direct continuation of a zone scenario.

Jade Forest: Scenario would have been the battle at the Jade Dragon monument leading to the 5 man where you defeat the freed Sha.

Valley of the Four Winds: Scenario would have been the quest chain around the Brewery with the 5 man being that follow up.

Krasarang: No idea about this zone at all.

Kun-Lai: Tweaked the Questing so you'd get a Scenario where the fighting off the Yaungol allows the Sha to infest the Shado-Pan and then you go in to help free them.

Townlong: Scenario built around destroying the bridge that the Klaxxi are trying to rebuild in the 5 man.

Dreadwastes: Scenario where you help repulse the first exploratory attack against the wall leading to the 5 man where you finish off the invaders.
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Re: Post Your Successes!

Postby halabar » Fri Jul 12, 2013 12:13 pm

So that's 7 5-mans plus 7 scenarios that would all become completly irrelevant as soon as you can touch the first LFR/FLEX raid? What a waste.

5 mans are a relic of the age when most players never set foot in a raid. They are fine as they exist for leveling content, but are really a resouce drain for max level content. I'm not against a few being added for leveling areas, especially to teach new talents, but scenarios fufill the need for short content that can introduce the lore, and provide a daily content fix.

I'd much rather see a few new scenarios to tackle lore with each new patch, rather than any 5-mans at max level.
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Re: Post Your Successes!

Postby Teranoid » Fri Jul 12, 2013 1:14 pm

halabar wrote:I don't see the fascination with 5-mans, and why so many of the forums rage about how "x" could have been scrapped in favor of developing more 5-mans. 5 mans can go DIAF. Looking back at my toons, over that past year, I've only run 5-mans to boost leveling, and after having done heroic scenarios now, I see NO need for 5-mans at all at max level. We don't need then to teach tanking or healing, you have LFR and FLEX for that. Why would I want to do a 5-man at 90 when I could do an LFR wing in the same amount of time?

I totally disagree with Flex on this. 5-mans should be the leveling content to teach skills, and scenarios should be the max-level short content for delivering lore and providing daily content.


5 mans won't even need to exist for "teaching" anything with Proving Grounds finally being implemented. I've personally gotten to the point where I can level faster just questing and when that character reaches 90 it's not even necessary to do heroic 5 mans. Craft you some of the pvp gear, nab a 489 piece from the Barrens weekly and grab your 502 boots and go hit LFR.
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Re: Post Your Successes!

Postby cdan » Fri Jul 12, 2013 1:23 pm

Teranoid wrote:
halabar wrote:I don't see the fascination with 5-mans, and why so many of the forums rage about how "x" could have been scrapped in favor of developing more 5-mans. 5 mans can go DIAF. Looking back at my toons, over that past year, I've only run 5-mans to boost leveling, and after having done heroic scenarios now, I see NO need for 5-mans at all at max level. We don't need then to teach tanking or healing, you have LFR and FLEX for that. Why would I want to do a 5-man at 90 when I could do an LFR wing in the same amount of time?

I totally disagree with Flex on this. 5-mans should be the leveling content to teach skills, and scenarios should be the max-level short content for delivering lore and providing daily content.


5 mans won't even need to exist for "teaching" anything with Proving Grounds finally being implemented. I've personally gotten to the point where I can level faster just questing and when that character reaches 90 it's not even necessary to do heroic 5 mans. Craft you some of the pvp gear, nab a 489 piece from the Barrens weekly and grab your 502 boots and go hit LFR.


...and let 24 other people carry you through a raid. :wink:
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Re: Post Your Successes!

Postby Flex » Fri Jul 12, 2013 1:24 pm

It's LFR so it is roughly 7 people carrying everyone else.
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Re: Post Your Successes!

Postby halabar » Fri Jul 12, 2013 2:03 pm

Teranoid wrote:
halabar wrote:I don't see the fascination with 5-mans, and why so many of the forums rage about how "x" could have been scrapped in favor of developing more 5-mans. 5 mans can go DIAF. Looking back at my toons, over that past year, I've only run 5-mans to boost leveling, and after having done heroic scenarios now, I see NO need for 5-mans at all at max level. We don't need then to teach tanking or healing, you have LFR and FLEX for that. Why would I want to do a 5-man at 90 when I could do an LFR wing in the same amount of time?

I totally disagree with Flex on this. 5-mans should be the leveling content to teach skills, and scenarios should be the max-level short content for delivering lore and providing daily content.


5 mans won't even need to exist for "teaching" anything with Proving Grounds finally being implemented. I've personally gotten to the point where I can level faster just questing and when that character reaches 90 it's not even necessary to do heroic 5 mans. Craft you some of the pvp gear, nab a 489 piece from the Barrens weekly and grab your 502 boots and go hit LFR.


True. Leave the old ones, and just develop scenarios as needed to introduce new content.
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Re: Post Your Successes!

Postby econ21 » Fri Jul 12, 2013 3:52 pm

I love 5 mans. BC era heroics and Cata five mans. I love marking targets, organising cc, explaining boss tactics to newbies and persevering through 20 wipes on the last boss of ZG. I find them much more fun to tank than raids, where the artificial dances and stop-start flow of progression wipes break any immersion.

I hate "gogogo" 5 mans where everyone massively outgears them though, as happened late Wotlk, Cata and now MoP. They are not quite as charmless as scenarios, but nearly. Both are content I do to cap points not because they are fun.
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Re: Post Your Successes!

Postby Klaudandus » Fri Jul 12, 2013 4:22 pm

I like both scenarios and dungeons.


On other news, I watched Pacific Rim, the whole time I tried to match the characters in the movie to their analogue in Evangelion. Definitively worth watching though -- if what you want to see is giant mecha vs kaijus -- since there's a lot of it.
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Re: Post Your Successes!

Postby Nooska » Sat Jul 13, 2013 4:16 am

I see a lot of "oh we are 2 tiers in, 5 mans are eeeeaaaasyyy" in the above discussion.
The 5 mans were actually difficult enough for the expected gearlevels when you hit 90 for the "heroic" versions.

I can't be the only one that can still remember the need to do "normal" 5 mans to have enough gear to go into heroics, where everyone was just geared for them (and some were a little undergeared as they had highe rilvl stuff in their bags for offspec or to cheat the system).

5 mans don't need to be harder, especially with LFD being the only sensible way to go to one, unless you are in a very very active guild that canget a group going within 5-10 minutes (including getting to the dungeon).
This is the same issue as cata - "the heroics are too easy" being spouted while doing firelands, or even worse DS - 5 mans in MoP are easier than 5 mans in cata, and they needed to be honestly - I can also remember hour long (or longer) 5mans with loads of wipes in relevant gear in cata - and much replacement when people "ran out of allotted time".

Thats also the reason we got more 5mans in both wrath and cata as the tiers progressed, so we still had some challenging nonraid content. (Challenge modes don't quite qualify, because while challenging (by restriction), it is too restricted for a good portion of the playerbase, there are a good number of people out there that need to have slightly better gear to beat a challenge and get the same sense of accomplishment than others).

My $0.02 on the development of 5mans/raids is that hey need to expand their team so they can do the good raids AND a couple of 5 mans - scenarios don't quite cut it, as there is also an issue of wanting to run stuff for gearing up (LFR is quite limited in gearing up, you get 1 chance per week per boss, and an additional 3 chances per week from bonus rolls)
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Re: Post Your Successes!

Postby Treck » Sat Jul 13, 2013 8:03 am

Went from a GTX 275 to a 7970.
Holy shit.
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Re: Post Your Successes!

Postby Sagara » Sat Jul 13, 2013 8:34 am

Well, we COULD have scenarios giving loot in a manner closer to 5-man (i.e. One guaranteed drop for the final boss, but maybe not appropriate to the group.

I'm convinced there's lots of poential there somewhere...
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Re: Post Your Successes!

Postby Worldie » Sat Jul 13, 2013 9:10 am

My opinion is that you can have both scenarios and 5 men, but they need to be better at different things.

Examples:
5 men giving more exp, scenario having shorter queue and no setup
5 men giving several higher ilvl random loot, scenario giving a guaranteed lower ilvl useful loot at the end

What I don't like now is that 5 men are more or less useless, they are only useful for JPs and nothing else. Scenarios provide better loot (and always spec appropriate), guaranteed in normal and at very high chance in heroic, and have no queue and no setup requirement. You can also play hc scenarios in "easy mode" with having a healer or tank if you don't mind the 30 VP from bonus objective. (that you can reach also with only 2 dps, if their gear is good)
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Re: Post Your Successes!

Postby halabar » Sat Jul 13, 2013 11:41 am

Worldie wrote:My opinion is that you can have both scenarios and 5 men, but they need to be better at different things.

Examples:
5 men giving more exp, scenario having shorter queue and no setup
5 men giving several higher ilvl random loot, scenario giving a guaranteed lower ilvl useful loot at the end

What I don't like now is that 5 men are more or less useless, they are only useful for JPs and nothing else. Scenarios provide better loot (and always spec appropriate), guaranteed in normal and at very high chance in heroic, and have no queue and no setup requirement. You can also play hc scenarios in "easy mode" with having a healer or tank if you don't mind the 30 VP from bonus objective. (that you can reach also with only 2 dps, if their gear is good)


The problem remains that 5-mans take more resources than scenarios (unless you start building them the way scenarios are currently constructed) and become outdated once people get into the first raid.

Maybe we need Flex-mode dungeons? bring 2-4 of your friends?
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Re: Post Your Successes!

Postby benebarba » Sat Jul 13, 2013 1:25 pm

Klaudandus wrote:On other news, I watched Pacific Rim, the whole time I tried to match the characters in the movie to their analogue in Evangelion. Definitively worth watching though -- if what you want to see is giant mecha vs kaijus -- since there's a lot of it.


hopefully without the weird pedophilia/incest stuff that even the Japanese apparently couldn't get into :P
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Re: Post Your Successes!

Postby benebarba » Sat Jul 13, 2013 1:27 pm

Worldie wrote:My opinion is that you can have both scenarios and 5 men, but they need to be better at different things.

Examples:
5 men giving more exp, scenario having shorter queue and no setup
5 men giving several higher ilvl random loot, scenario giving a guaranteed lower ilvl useful loot at the end

What I don't like now is that 5 men are more or less useless, they are only useful for JPs and nothing else. Scenarios provide better loot (and always spec appropriate), guaranteed in normal and at very high chance in heroic, and have no queue and no setup requirement. You can also play hc scenarios in "easy mode" with having a healer or tank if you don't mind the 30 VP from bonus objective. (that you can reach also with only 2 dps, if their gear is good)


wait... when did scenarios guarantee spec appropriate loot on normal? I've gotten healing and ret plate more than once while in prot spec (before the whole 'loot spec' stuff).

but yes, I think MoP is the expansion that seems to have tried to kill the 5-man.
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Re: Post Your Successes!

Postby amh » Sat Jul 13, 2013 4:12 pm

So Anzu finally decided to drop his reins. The only reason I dared run through on all my characters was because of the account-wide mount system - and whaddayaknow? Dropped for my hunter. :)
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Re: Post Your Successes!

Postby Worldie » Sat Jul 13, 2013 5:05 pm

benebarba wrote:wait... when did scenarios guarantee spec appropriate loot on normal? I've gotten healing and ret plate more than once while in prot spec (before the whole 'loot spec' stuff)

Uh I never got spec inappropriate loot from scenarios, though I admit I havent really farmed them before 5.3 (actually hardly ever did one before) so it might be a new thing.
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Re: Post Your Successes!

Postby Flex » Sat Jul 13, 2013 7:02 pm

Pacific Rim is 3 Rocket Punches out of 5.
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Re: Post Your Successes!

Postby benebarba » Sat Jul 13, 2013 7:46 pm

Flex wrote:Pacific Rim is 3 Rocket Punches out of 5.


yeah, it totally lost 1 for that whole 'we have to act like we have character development' bit. Though it did almost make up for it with the Ron Perlman... well, everything.

But really, I've rarely walked out of a movie that met my expectations more thoroughly. Yeah, if you want to get down to it, it was a mediocre anime that they could only afford to make as an OVA, what with the live action and massive special effects budget (hell, I've seen the anime it was probably inspired by, and they all did it better IMO). But you know what? It totally delivered on giant robots punching giant monsters. And that's exactly what I wanted out of it.
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Re: Post Your Successes!

Postby Flex » Sat Jul 13, 2013 8:32 pm

benebarba wrote:
Flex wrote:Pacific Rim is 3 Rocket Punches out of 5.


yeah, it totally lost 1 for that whole 'we have to act like we have character development' bit. Though it did almost make up for it with the Ron Perlman... well, everything.

But really, I've rarely walked out of a movie that met my expectations more thoroughly. Yeah, if you want to get down to it, it was a mediocre anime that they could only afford to make as an OVA, what with the live action and massive special effects budget (hell, I've seen the anime it was probably inspired by, and they all did it better IMO). But you know what? It totally delivered on giant robots punching giant monsters. And that's exactly what I wanted out of it.


Not knowing they had swords?!

I know some people had issues with Man of Steel but to me that was exactly what I wanted from a Superman movie and the final battle was exactly how I'd envisioned it in my head.
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Re: Post Your Successes!

Postby KysenMurrin » Sun Jul 14, 2013 12:03 pm

I enjoyed Pacific Rim a lot. Though the script was more B-movie than oscar material, what they were doing they did well.

Anyone else get distracted by how Mako Mori's haircut with the blue bits made her look like Knives Chau?
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Re: Post Your Successes!

Postby benebarba » Sun Jul 14, 2013 6:47 pm

Flex wrote:[
Not knowing they had swords?!

I seriously turned to my wife after the scene with the miraculous save by the whole 'oh yeah, we have swords!' thing and said 'He hadn't seen anything like that because apparently Mako was the first to remember they are equipped with swords, I guess.'

but then again, it was about punching monsters :P
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Re: Post Your Successes!

Postby Teranoid » Sun Jul 14, 2013 9:22 pm

3 Runestones this week.

Wow. I uh.. yeah. 2 more weeks tops!
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