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Feeling a bit uneasy with JoL Threat.

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Moderators: Fridmarr, Worldie, Aergis, Sabindeus, PsiVen

Postby sweeney » Tue Nov 11, 2008 7:26 am

Eh. Having played a paladin since well before BC, I just don't have the energy to be outraged about anything. :)

I expect the class to slightly underperform other classes carrying out the same role, and I figure at 80 if it's ridiculously unbalanced they will eventually fix it. Knowing Blizzard's track record on paladins, I can't see any point in being upset or stressed out, because it won't make a difference.

It will always be a bugged and gimmicky class but it's MINE and I just roll my eyes and keep tankin'.
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Postby verthis » Tue Nov 11, 2008 7:26 am

What I'm going to do is throw everything I have at said boss, give it all I have. if thats not enough then ill rework gear, regem and re-enchant for threat, seal switch and try my utmost to stay ahead of the dps, and trust my dps to cut me a bit of slack.

If all that fails ill ask the other tanks in the tanking team to handle that fight for the sake of progression. I am lucky I guess in the fact that the other tanks in our team are all great players and we function best when we work together.

what more can I do until blizzard fixes our threat generation. They have said that they want every class to be able to tank every encounter so I can only trust that this will be fixed and continue to play the class and spec I love. :D
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Postby Worldie » Tue Nov 11, 2008 7:45 am

Loras wrote:You say that if you overaggro the warr that's your fault and yet you say that we're behind threat. Provided that he's using his full threat potential, how is that possible to be your fault? :)

It would be his fault, because if he saw himself getting too close to the tank, he'd just have stopped, or salvationed himself, or removed RF.
That included using judgement of justice instead of light.

Overaggroing another tank is always wrong.

Serious tank don't need e-peen competitions on threat.
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Postby mazater » Tue Nov 11, 2008 7:49 am

Worldie wrote:Serious tank don't need e-peen competitions on threat.

Does that mean that I'm not serious? :<

I have a bad habit of overaggroing maintanks on pretty much every boss, not to mention Bloodboil, oh bloodboil, oh how I love thee.
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Postby Zironic » Tue Nov 11, 2008 7:56 am

Worldie wrote:Overaggroing another tank is always wrong.



You should never use words like always or never. There are still a fair few tank switch fights in the game where you're technically meant to overaggro the other tank (albeit by the use of taunt).
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Postby Worldie » Tue Nov 11, 2008 8:22 am

Zironic wrote:
Worldie wrote:Overaggroing another tank is always wrong.



You should never use words like always or never. There are still a fair few tank switch fights in the game where you're technically meant to overaggro the other tank (albeit by the use of taunt).

Ok, i can rephrase if you like to feel picky.

Overaggroing another tank when this is not supposed to happen due to a specific boss mechanic similar to Void Reaver, Bloodbol or Eredar Twins is always wrong.


Happy now?
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Postby ziggyunderslashone » Tue Nov 11, 2008 8:27 am

Part of the issue with JoL, its often going to be uncontrollable (short of overwriting, which isn't ideal either if its about to mass heal the raid).

Personally I'm quite keen on it. It's unique, situational and massively abusable. The only issue is it being considered as part of our basic threat for balance purposes, as its actual quantity depends on largely arbitrary and uncontrolable factors.
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Postby Amarant_Pally » Tue Nov 11, 2008 11:37 am

Worldie wrote:
Zironic wrote:
Worldie wrote:Overaggroing another tank is always wrong.



You should never use words like always or never. There are still a fair few tank switch fights in the game where you're technically meant to overaggro the other tank (albeit by the use of taunt).

Ok, i can rephrase if you like to feel picky.

Overaggroing another tank when this is not supposed to happen due to a specific boss mechanic similar to Void Reaver, Bloodbol or Eredar Twins is always wrong.


Happy now?


Noooo!

I kinda...always overaggro the starting tank (Warrior) on Twins now. Needing to keep JoL up to stay "2nd on threat," after he gets confounded a few times (usually around 50%) I usually take threat and "MT" the last bit. It's not accident; it's not on purpose...but it hasn't impeded any of our kills.

And yes, on other fights (Naj, Teron, RoS, Felmyst, M'uru) I like to ride his threat to show him we could get rid of him (and woulda been fine if he had actually left and not been "hacked"...another gripe for another thread).
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Postby kvark » Tue Nov 11, 2008 1:16 pm

The big question remains ; did blizzard intend us to use JoL as a part of our threat generation ?
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Postby Splug » Tue Nov 11, 2008 1:25 pm

Loras wrote:Not saying that I am not doing my job, don't get me wrong. But I was fed up with the old stuff "warr tanking is better, paladins are for 5-man stuff". And now that we're supposed to be "balanced", we're behind in threat, behind in dps, and MAYBE comparable in avoidance. Sweet!
I doubt all aspects of tanking are balanced at 70. They're certainly not intended to be, though if they just happen to be as a result of sheer dumb luck, cool. Run some numbers at 80 - there's not a whole lot of point to comparing damage output numbers at 70, given that said analysis will be obsolete in uhh... two days.

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Postby Vanifae » Tue Nov 11, 2008 1:33 pm

Splug wrote:
Loras wrote:Not saying that I am not doing my job, don't get me wrong. But I was fed up with the old stuff "warr tanking is better, paladins are for 5-man stuff". And now that we're supposed to be "balanced", we're behind in threat, behind in dps, and MAYBE comparable in avoidance. Sweet!
I doubt all aspects of tanking are balanced at 70. They're certainly not intended to be, though if they just happen to be as a result of sheer dumb luck, cool. Run some numbers at 80 - there's not a whole lot of point to comparing damage output numbers at 70, given that said analysis will be obsolete in uhh... two days.

-Splug

Yeah relax people the game changes in two days, let's complain when we get to 80 when stuff matters again.
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Postby Macawber » Tue Nov 11, 2008 4:03 pm

Splug wrote:I doubt all aspects of tanking are balanced at 70.


The problem isn't that we're unbalanced at 70, the problem is that the mechanic itself is flawed. Either paladins are balanced with JoL threat in mind or JoL is "bonus" threat Blizzard didn't take into account. If the former case is true, paladins are underpowered in smaller groups or in raids without a lot of raid-wide damage. If it's the latter, paladins are overpowered in 25-mans, and will have to be nerfed somewhere to make up for it.

You're right that it doesn't make a lot of sense to talk about specific numbers right now at 70, but at any level or level of gear, threat from JoL just doesn't work.
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Postby knaughty » Tue Nov 11, 2008 4:10 pm

kvark wrote:The big question remains ; did blizzard intend us to use JoL as a part of our threat generation ?


I really doubt it, because it's too variable.
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Postby Grimmal » Tue Nov 11, 2008 4:16 pm

The current JoL is obviously bugged imo.

It is the main seal that a Holy Paladin would consider sealing as a big reason why they can't have planned it. They design the new Holy to judge, and then take away the judgement they would use most due to how much aggro it can cause?

I know running around Ret specced lately I've used it to tank and the sheer amount of aggro I get over anybody else is sickening. I mean it's not even close. There is no way it is planned.

Do I like it in it's current state? For tanking I would never use either of the other two. For Holy/Ret, it's something to avoid which is somewhat annoying.
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Postby Drugrunner » Tue Nov 11, 2008 4:32 pm

I Didnt even know JoL was bugged

i only sometimes use it usually JoW

I very rarely(didnt want to say 'never') have issues in holding threat

only time i do is with dps who really out gear me

If MT and i pull and everything works the better geared dps wont catch me


i have t4/badge/za and 1 t6 type gear
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