Feeling a bit uneasy with JoL Threat.

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Feeling a bit uneasy with JoL Threat.

Postby kvark » Tue Nov 11, 2008 3:45 am

I just finishing levelling up my second palatank, I really love the class and the spec - but having been at felmyst offtanking and having to actually using hand of salvation on myself to avoid grabbing agro from the designated maintank, and doing 5mans just fine - but with marginal better threat than the dps'ers.

It just seems to me like our threat is balanced around a buggy JoL side-effect instead of waving our weapon and shield,screaming and kickin' a boss as it should be, and it just appears to me that gc & blues are just happy about JoL being a vital part of our threat.

It's not a QQ, it's just a slight worry about our new flavor. Paladins have always tanked using "odd" side-effects that in some ways exploited flaws in the design, and it was really cool to tank effectively using "hacks" like spamming RF to empty manabar, generating more agro when it fills up...or even healing a drained lock to grab "unlimited ranged agro" like on morogrim. But DEPENDING on judgement of light to have a chance of keeping agro is not a cool side-effect.

Guess we'll see how things turns out. Bet we'll find a new proper tankadin way to shine where it's darkest ;)
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Postby Claydon » Tue Nov 11, 2008 4:02 am

I went to grull for a laugh a couple of days ago with alts from my guild. they are all geared about the same as I am (recently joined them so way behind their mains)

we had a warrior that was suppose to tank grull but his first shield slam missed and my AS didnt. i kept agro for the whole of the fight ending up with about a 50k threat lead over the closest mage.

I wasn't using JoL.....

JoL is normally my tanking judgement of choice but i can tank just fine without it.

I don't know whats going on with some people but I just don't seem to have a problem with threat without using JoL
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Postby verthis » Tue Nov 11, 2008 4:04 am

I cant speak for everyone but I don't DEPEND on JoL threat to keep aggro. yes this threat is a bonus and sometimes an annoyance but it is not a nessessity in order to hold aggro.

As I suggested to a friend that was also having to rely on JoL threat to keep ahead of the dps, maybe check your rotation, see what you can do to increase threat generation through other means, change consumables.

Just a thought.
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Postby Bobness » Tue Nov 11, 2008 4:18 am

Some people see it as a problem, some don't.

If you don't feel comfortable with it don't Judge light.

I don't like it but i'm still using it... free threat is still free.

It will have to be addressed at some point, but by the looks of it this won't be until a substantial number of people hit new raid content.

Either that or we can encourage Warriors to complain about it rather than the Blessing of Sanctuary moans that appear to be FOTM.
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Postby kvark » Tue Nov 11, 2008 4:32 am

So, what you are reporting is that palatanks matches warriors/ferals in threat - and that JoL threat adds on top of that ?
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Postby verthis » Tue Nov 11, 2008 4:43 am

As it currently stands a warrior or feral druid in similar gear will generate more threat than a paladin if i'm not mistaken, if he puts his mind to it our warrior MT will come from behind me on the threat meter and overaggro, it still takes doing though and it's not easy.

But no, a warrior or feral druid should be able to overaggro a palatank without JoL threat, that said, if I see the warrior catching me, ill change to SoB and my slow sword and open the gap again. If im using JoL however, he has no chance.
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Postby Bobness » Tue Nov 11, 2008 4:59 am

Well put it this way.. numbers subject to innaccuracy but make a point

5 man

Assume the following

Avg Jol proc 300
Avg Jol Threat 0.5
Avg Jol PPM 15
No affected = 4

Max avg TPS Jol = 150
Add in threat modifiers (1.9*1.43) = 407.55

25 man

Assume the following

Avg Jol proc 300
Avg Jol Threat 0.5
Avg Jol PPM 15
No affected = 18

Max avg TPS Jol = 675
Add in threat modifiers (1.9*1.43) = 1833.97


Subject to overhealing etc etc....
Last edited by Bobness on Tue Nov 11, 2008 5:08 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby verthis » Tue Nov 11, 2008 5:02 am

did you add the RF threat modifier?
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Postby Bobness » Tue Nov 11, 2008 5:04 am

Hmm good point will amend...
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Postby kvark » Tue Nov 11, 2008 5:20 am

So what you're saying is that in order to match out brothers in fur and iron is to either use a seal that generate an extra parry or to use a judgement that is flawed ? Look, I'm not saying I'm unable to do my job, both my paladins are able to do their job just fine - for now.

I guess I just wish that for once we were designed properly so that we ACTUALLY could match equally geared tanks of other flavors without using "odd tricks" to get on the same level. Skill always applies luckily, and I do have massive experience in this from TBC, but if judging JoL is enough to tank well... kinda disappointing :)
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Postby Worldie » Tue Nov 11, 2008 5:22 am

Fact: Currently either you use JoL or you will be far behind on threat.
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Postby Bobness » Tue Nov 11, 2008 5:31 am

kvark wrote:So what you're saying is that in order to match out brothers in fur and iron is to either use a seal that generate an extra parry or to use a judgement that is flawed ? Look, I'm not saying I'm unable to do my job, both my paladins are able to do their job just fine - for now.

I guess I just wish that for once we were designed properly so that we ACTUALLY could match equally geared tanks of other flavors without using "odd tricks" to get on the same level. Skill always applies luckily, and I do have massive experience in this from TBC, but if judging JoL is enough to tank well... kinda disappointing :)


It's all subject to opinion in the end...

As people keep saying as long as you can stay ahead of your DPS without using JOL then it's only in comparison to other Tanks that we need worry.

Eventually blizzard will get to it... Unfortunately they have'nt given any indication that it's on they're radar yet.
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Postby Loras » Tue Nov 11, 2008 5:57 am

Worldie wrote:Fact: Currently either you use JoL or you will be far behind on threat.

This


Stop denying the obvious. It's not only about staying above the dps threat-wise. It's like "who cares that with equal gear I have 3k hp, 4% dodge, 2000 armor and 300 dps less than a warrior, if the boss dies"? Well, I at least DO care... (the numbers, of course, are not real, just for the better example)
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Postby verthis » Tue Nov 11, 2008 6:09 am

At the end of the day, if I am MTing the boss and the warrior tank overaggroes, thats his bad, if the warrior in MTing the boss and I overaggro thats my bad.

When the boss goes down, job is done. Yes, we are behind on threat, yes we need to use JoL to get up there with the rest, i'm sure at some point it will get fixed, until then we just have to keep doing what we did until now, make it work as we always have.
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Postby Loras » Tue Nov 11, 2008 6:53 am

verthis wrote:At the end of the day, if I am MTing the boss and the warrior tank overaggroes, thats his bad, if the warrior in MTing the boss and I overaggro thats my bad.

When the boss goes down, job is done. Yes, we are behind on threat, yes we need to use JoL to get up there with the rest, i'm sure at some point it will get fixed, until then we just have to keep doing what we did until now, make it work as we always have.


You say that if you overaggro the warr that's your fault and yet you say that we're behind threat. Provided that he's using his full threat potential, how is that possible to be your fault? :) And imagine it's the most simple tank'n spank progress fight, a gear check, fast dps race with heavy stress on healers, ZERO raid dmg, and a requirement for the MT and OT to be 1st and 2nd on aggro list. What are you gonna do with no JOL and you're the OT? Tell the dps to stay at 1.5k tps (not forgetting that it's a dps race, ofc)? Don't think so.

Not saying that I am not doing my job, don't get me wrong. But I was fed up with the old stuff "warr tanking is better, paladins are for 5-man stuff". And now that we're supposed to be "balanced", we're behind in threat, behind in dps, and MAYBE comparable in avoidance. Sweet!
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