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11 point talent "Maybe" Info

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Postby Sengar » Sun Nov 02, 2008 2:17 pm

I really want to see something activated that blocks incoming magical damage. Basically:

Reuse: 3 min
Duration: 20 sec
On Use: Allows user to block incoming magical damage using their block rating/value. Damage blocked is reflected back at the caster as holy damage.


So if our block rating is at 1000, we'd take 1k less damage on a successful block of a spell, while reflecting 1k holy damage back at the caster.
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Postby Samilyn » Sun Nov 02, 2008 3:01 pm

I want to see a Body Slam ability:

45s CD(talented to 15 through Imp HoJ), 20yd range
You lower your shoulder and hurl yourself at your enemy, causing physical damage based on your Armor and Stamina. Interrupts/locks spell school for 5 seconds, causes a 3 second daze effect.


Usable by Prot as a primary interrupt, and physical damage makes it a "use when needed" ability instead of a primary threat rotation ability.

Gives Ret a distance closer without doing OP damage, due to their lower armor/lack of a shield. 20yd range requires some work to get in range; Ret can still be kited somewhat effectively for the purpose of avoiding damage, but stopping to cast a spell means the pally will get to you.

Make a Glyph to change the Daze to a Silence.


Thoughts?
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Postby Jtree » Sun Nov 02, 2008 3:37 pm

Samilyn wrote:I want to see a Body Slam ability:

45s CD(talented to 15 through Imp HoJ), 20yd range
You lower your shoulder and hurl yourself at your enemy, causing physical damage based on your Armor and Stamina. Interrupts/locks spell school for 5 seconds, causes a 3 second daze effect.


Usable by Prot as a primary interrupt, and physical damage makes it a "use when needed" ability instead of a primary threat rotation ability.

Gives Ret a distance closer without doing OP damage, due to their lower armor/lack of a shield. 20yd range requires some work to get in range; Ret can still be kited somewhat effectively for the purpose of avoiding damage, but stopping to cast a spell means the pally will get to you.

Make a Glyph to change the Daze to a Silence.


Thoughts?


Instead of a daze, give it a knockdown. Call it Righteous Sack.



To toot my own horn a bit, I've been thinking of this general principal since BoK went to the first row. I'd love to see an 11-pointer that has some usability for us when tanking bosses, but can be desirable to ret and holy paladins in PvP and/or PvE.

What I would like to see is a fun little 11-pointer, that's attached to the BoSanc->HS->AS->SotT chain. Then add an improvement talent for that off of HS, where the old Improved Holy Shield was, making it some sort of ohshit button for us. From the above example (though the cooldown would have to be lengthened):

Devastating Hit:
Your Righteous Sack shakes up your target, reducing it's chance to hit by 3/7/10% for eight seconds.


Something along those lines would be entertaining, not too OP (I hope), and functional for various specs and purposes.
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Postby Seraphia » Sun Nov 02, 2008 3:45 pm

Garath.Gorefiend wrote:
Dantriges wrote:Interrupt or Snare? Make a new talent in the retribution tree or baseline skill.
Interrupts are done by DD in raids most of the time. Helpful yes, important, no. I missed the ability to interrupt in heroics and ZA a bit but nothing to get excited over.
Snares? Unless you count stopping the trolls in ZA from calling in reinforcements as meaningful tanking, it´s more or less useless for us in a tanking role in pve content.


I agree.

Frankly, what chews and spits out prot paladins faster than anything else is incoming magic damage especially from multiple sources.

When the incoming damage is magic and at range, the ONLY mana we get is from SA if we are getting any heals...we get no mana back from sanctuary in this case.

Put mana burn in on top of it and we are toast.

Blizz can say what it likes about the difference between mana and a rage bar, but in PvE, the only time i have seen a warrior who is tanking being rage starved is when they totally outgear the event.

I dont think I have ever seen a bear totally rage starved.

Paladins can easily still be mana starved though.

Frankly, I was hoping that our 11 point talent was going to be one that dealt with at least one of our glaring weaknesses to silence/manaburn/fear/magic damage.

A charge/interrupt would deal with magic damage, but if the magic damage is coming from multiple sources, its only a small part of the answer.

Bang for the buck...I cant see how they can fix so many weaknesses that we still have and that warriors dont with a single talent.

Making it usefull for Ret at the same time...that will prove to be almost impossible.

I love playing my prot paladin, but face it, there are some things that a prot warrior just handles way better than we either do or can.

Our two biggest strengths were AoE and effective crush immunity.

Now that the other tanks have AoE capabilities and there are no crushing blows, I cant really say the prot paladin is that much better at anything.

While the same cannot be said about the warrior.

Charges, stuns, interrupts, and spell reflects all combine to give the warrior a superb amount of control in caster based fights.

Frankly, what I was hoping was going to be our 11 point talent was the ability to block incoming magical damage. It would not be a spell reflect, simply a damage reduction based on our block value.

That way, it would scale with our equipment, and since it was a block, trigger the mana regen from BoSanc and reduce incoming magic damage.

But that would be useless to Ret paladins.

Ah well, one can still hope.



AoE Holy DeathGrip? 8)
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Postby knaughty » Sun Nov 02, 2008 4:02 pm


If we do it (make an 11-point Prot talent that is attractive to Ret) it would be for these reasons:

-- It would be cooler if the talent was something fun for Prot and not something they "need" to tank.
-- In our experience, Ret paladins who PvP often go down into Prot anyway to get Imp Hammer of Justice.
-- I suggested we might offer Ret more PvP utility since we are stripping some of the burst damage, so PvE Retadins might not want this ability anyway.
-- We wouldn't want this talent to be something Prot would never get and Ret would always get. If anything we need to err on the side of something Prot definitely wants.


Everyone is going "OHNOZE! 11-pt prot talent that (PVP) Ret wantzes!"

Get a grip.

Cross-spec 11pt talents have often been highly attractive, and are also sometimes a key differentiator one way or the other between PvE & PvP specs. I'm not an expert on other classes by any stretch, but here's a few I spotted in 2 minutes looking:

• Omen of Clarity for Feral.
• Shamanistic focus for Elemental.
• Focus Magic for Fire or Frost
• Soul Link for any spec PvP Warlock
• Anger management for Fury.

Just because something is attractive to PvP Ret doesn't mean it can't be good for PvE prot. In fact, it seems more likely that it'll be something I want.

I don't want any more abilities that are:
• Passive (always on or auto-trigger)
• Just part of my rotation (it's full!)

I want a shortish CD active ability that gives something new. A PvP useful ret talent is going to be something like a debuff clearing talent, a mobility talent (charge? death grip?), an anti-caster talent or something like that. IE: Just the sort of stuff we want as tanks.
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Postby Karock » Sun Nov 02, 2008 5:11 pm

Get a grip.


Yeah that's what I want =P
A "Death" Grip ;p
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Postby Sharlos » Sun Nov 02, 2008 5:33 pm

I don't know what you're all concerned about, PvP and tanking have a fair bit of crossover.

We both wouldn't mind a worthwhile interrupt.
A short powerful snare would be useful, but it would have to have a secondary effect.
A charge like mechanic would be nice.
A damage reduction mechanic would be nice, especially for casters.

But don't ignore holy either, in which case all three specs could do with a short term magic damage reduction or removal of magical effects.
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Postby knaughty » Sun Nov 02, 2008 6:10 pm

Given that is has to be at least attractive to PvP ret, it won't be anything to do with block.

I wish I knew more about arenas - I only know what ret feel they need in arenas from all the QQ (and I have a strong QQ filter).

What we know about the 11-pt so far:
• It will be good for PvE Prot and PvP ret.
• Prot will like it more
• It won't be mandatory for prot.

Any experienced ret arena players want to comment on things that might fit the bill?
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Postby MonkH » Sun Nov 02, 2008 7:02 pm

just got reminded of somthink that would be good for prot pala to have, some sort of armor reduction. i always have my hunter m8 going "oh id do 200 more dps if mob had sunders!"
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Postby Fridmarr » Sun Nov 02, 2008 7:15 pm

MonkH wrote:just got reminded of somthink that would be good for prot pala to have, some sort of armor reduction. i always have my hunter m8 going "oh id do 200 more dps if mob had sunders!"


While true, a ret pally is already giving him 3% to crit, some haste, and some mana so I don't know that raid type utility will be what blizzard is looking at.

It's most likely some way to deal with closing the gap. Personally, I really am not interested in an interrupt or a charge type ability. I'd probably spec into them for lack of a better place to put points, but at the end of the day that won't help tanking. By the sounds of things though, I might as well get used to our 11 pointer not helping with tanking.
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Postby Elsie » Sun Nov 02, 2008 9:51 pm

A minor problem:
A prot paladin applies his raid buffs and debuffs at no cost or unusual application method. A warrior applies sunder armor via stacking debuffs that deal no damage themselves, but is part of a normal warrior's threat rotation. Once the warrior is not tanking, applying sunders is a strict dps loss. A paladin who is not tanking is non-issue since judgment applications are a by-product of judging.

Another problem:
Vigilance is infinitely better than Hand of Salvation as a static 10% threat reduction on a dps and buff to the warrior.
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Postby alayire » Mon Nov 03, 2008 3:30 am

Elsie wrote:A minor problem:
..... Once the warrior is not tanking, applying sunders is a strict dps loss. A paladin who is not tanking is non-issue since judgment applications are a by-product of judging. ...
you are actualy forgetting Devastate. so no .. a warrior that isn't tanking is applying shunders as a byproduct of Devastate, a prot warrior dps move.
exactly as we are doing :P
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Postby Xonia » Mon Nov 03, 2008 8:42 am

Elsie wrote:
Another problem:
Vigilance is infinitely better than Hand of Salvation as a static 10% threat reduction on a dps and buff to the warrior.


This, i tanked on my war last night for the first time since 3.0 and wow.. Vigi is like salv on crack.... I could do virtually nothing and keep threat by just tossing it on whom ever was second... That and shockwave seems way OPed to me.

Overall I still enjoyed my pally more, but wow it seems like prot wars got all sorts of new toys and we got the left overs.

I really hope our 11pt is grip type of pull and adding partial spell reflect to holy shield would be awsome imo.
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Postby fuzzygeek » Mon Nov 03, 2008 9:29 am

Warrior tank putting Vigilance on Ret paladin + RF = lawls.
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Postby MonkH » Mon Nov 03, 2008 10:10 am

a holy grip pull thing would actually be quite good because when i tried tanking as ret found it u either had to repentance pull but with 1min cd usually had to get an md or body pull or wait for it to CD, which isn't really ideal
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