Ret nerfed hard via unannounced hotfix.

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Postby Sabindeus » Thu Oct 16, 2008 7:49 am

caboom wrote:
Levantine wrote:That still do more than Command?


i doubt it if u have haste gear, since command scales with haste now.


how does command scale with haste now? as far as I know, nothing changed.
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Postby 2ndNin » Thu Oct 16, 2008 8:22 am

Yeah was last night around 12 midnight UK (1am server), so pre hotfix, an AoE class doing 1500 dps in SH doesn't seem a bad thing, especially since it basically plays into the Ret pally strengths (4-5 targets per pull, so DS basically maxing out on every pull, consecration usable with no real down side).

My lock pre 3.0.2 normally hit 1.2k dps in there using a mix of shadow bolts and seeds (kill the legionnaire first), so 1500 doesn't seem out of whack imo, actually given the increase in my prot damage (60% probably from pre-patch in there) its down right moderate.
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Postby Sarkan-ZdC » Thu Oct 16, 2008 8:39 am

from wowinsider.com:

Update: I am also told that they may have reduced the health/mana returned from Judgment of Light and Judgment of Wisdom by 50%, and reduced the damage of Judgment of Command by 25%. There still isn't a blue post that I can find about any of this, so it's hard to confirm -- can anyone confirm/deny the Judgment changes?


:(
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Postby Fenris » Thu Oct 16, 2008 8:49 am

Sarkan-ZdC wrote:from wowinsider.com:

Update: I am also told that they may have reduced the health/mana returned from Judgment of Light and Judgment of Wisdom by 50%, and reduced the damage of Judgment of Command by 25%. There still isn't a blue post that I can find about any of this, so it's hard to confirm -- can anyone confirm/deny the Judgment changes?


:(

Good times incoming.....

Oh,btw,gratz to warlocks for the most useless hotfix ever.....
The Felguard magic damage reduction now extends to Holy. I believe this was hotfixed yesterday.

Typically we don't change Holy resistance (which this is not), but it's consistent with other damage reduction abilities (which this is) to reduce all magic damage. This should help warlocks stand up to paladins in particular in PvP.

...unless they have problems with holy and protection paladins damage...
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Postby twinkfist » Thu Oct 16, 2008 8:53 am

well, if haste was second to str before on retpaladin..with the hotfix, is armor pen now back to being very good again?
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Postby Lore » Thu Oct 16, 2008 8:57 am

I'm hoping to see some official word from Ghostcrawler on this, since he did say they didn't want to nerf PvE Ret damage, and the Divine Storm change is a little bit of a nerf. Maybe not a substantial one.

Also, SoComm glyph makes it proc nearly every swing.
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Postby Fenris » Thu Oct 16, 2008 9:01 am

Lore wrote:I'm hoping to see some official word from Ghostcrawler on this, since he did say they didn't want to nerf PvE Ret damage, and the Divine Storm change is a little bit of a nerf. Maybe not a substantial one.

Also, SoComm glyph makes it proc nearly every swing.
here it is

As I stated yesterday, we are happy with Ret's PvE damage and sustatined damage in PvP, but were concerned that the burst damage in PvP could be too high. We discussed this for literally hours yesterday, which was certainly not the first time we have discussed the issue. Thus I hope these changes are not perceived as a knee-jerk reaction, but I am sure that will depend a great deal on which class you play. :)

Divine Storm -- the damage was changed from Holy to Physical. As you know, Holy damage is almost never mitigated and this talent could pack a lot into a very short time. This is a nerf to the ability's damage. This change is now active on Live.

Repentence -- this ability now lasts for only 6 seconds in PvP (down from 10). Obviously this is also a nerf. This change is also active on Live.

Art of War -- now affects all damage done by Judgements, Crusader Strike and Divine Storm (instead of critical strike damage). Net dps should be about the same but less bursty. This change will be made before Nov 13.

Righteous Vengeance -- now applies a dot affect similar to Deep Wounds (instead of critical strike damage). This ends up being a significant buff to the ability to make up for the damage lost to Divine Storm, but is also less bursty. This change will be made before Nov 13.

Glyph of Crusader Strike -- now reduces mana cost (instead of increased damage on stunned targets.) We thought paladins could stack too much damage vs. stunned targets. This change will be made before Nov 13.

We also fixed a bug with Seal and Judgement of Light that could sometimes result in too much healing.

In our tests, Retribution dps remains the same over longer periods of time, but they can't do quite so much damage in the initial few seconds of a PvP encounter.

I know Ret pallies feel a little picked on since we've made this mistake before of having them come out the gate too strong and then had to correct them. For that I do apologize. It's a difficult spec to balance since part of its design is to have large crits and stuns, which have obvious PvP implications. We are pretty confident this will not nerf pallies into the ground as I facetiously promised yesterday, but if we overdid it, we'll be happy to back off some of the changes.

On the other hand, maybe we'll see fewer BGs with 20 paladins on the opposing side and can get some reasonable feedback on all the other classes in the game.


Fresh from the forums.


Deep wounds+whirwind as 45->51 :roll:

And a 45-50 talent that makes the 31pointer not usable on your main+51 pointer targets :roll:
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Postby Dianora » Thu Oct 16, 2008 9:04 am

Ghostcrawler's forum post

Ghostcrawler wrote:As I stated yesterday, we are happy with Ret's PvE damage and sustatined damage in PvP, but were concerned that the burst damage in PvP could be too high. We discussed this for literally hours yesterday, which was certainly not the first time we have discussed the issue. Thus I hope these changes are not perceived as a knee-jerk reaction, but I am sure that will depend a great deal on which class you play. :)

Divine Storm -- the damage was changed from Holy to Physical. As you know, Holy damage is almost never mitigated and this talent could pack a lot into a very short time. This is a nerf to the ability's damage. This change is now active on Live.

Repentence -- this ability now lasts for only 6 seconds in PvP (down from 10). Obviously this is also a nerf. This change is also active on Live.

Art of War -- now affects all damage done by Judgements, Crusader Strike and Divine Storm (instead of critical strike damage). Net dps should be about the same but less bursty. This change will be made before Nov 13.

Righteous Vengeance -- now applies a dot affect similar to Deep Wounds (instead of critical strike damage). This ends up being a significant buff to the ability to make up for the damage lost to Divine Storm, but is also less bursty. This change will be made before Nov 13.

Glyph of Crusader Strike -- now reduces mana cost (instead of increased damage on stunned targets.) We thought paladins could stack too much damage vs. stunned targets. This change will be made before Nov 13.

We also fixed a bug with Seal and Judgement of Light that could sometimes result in too much healing.

In our tests, Retribution dps remains the same over longer periods of time, but they can't do quite so much damage in the initial few seconds of a PvP encounter.

I know Ret pallies feel a little picked on since we've made this mistake before of having them come out the gate too strong and then had to correct them. For that I do apologize. It's a difficult spec to balance since part of its design is to have large crits and stuns, which have obvious PvP implications. We are pretty confident this will not nerf pallies into the ground as I facetiously promised yesterday, but if we overdid it, we'll be happy to back off some of the changes.

On the other hand, maybe we'll see fewer BGs with 20 paladins on the opposing side and can get some reasonable feedback on all the other classes in the game.
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Postby Candiru » Thu Oct 16, 2008 9:06 am

Hopefully they will make the damage from the Righteous Vengence dot not break repentance, in the same way bleed dots for feral druids didn't break maim (while now no damage breaks maim)

Otherwise repentance has been nerfed into the ground.

Its only 6s rather than 10s, so its of less use to shut down a healer AND if you have hit something in the past, it will break from the dot.

:(

Its good for PvE though.
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Postby Fenris » Thu Oct 16, 2008 9:08 am

Candiru wrote:Hopefully they will make the damage from the Righteous Vengence dot not break repentance, in the same way bleed dots for feral druids didn't break maim (while now no damage breaks maim)

I call Murphy's law effect on the chances they'll make it.
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Postby Fridmarr » Thu Oct 16, 2008 9:13 am

Sounds pretty reasonable, though I think they'd get a better response if they didn't apply nerfs via a HotFix which just screams knee jerk, and also put the buffs in at the same time.
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Postby Lore » Thu Oct 16, 2008 9:13 am

Repentance remains a very solid PVE CC (as instant cast I've never had problems getting it off before the mobs get in range of anything dangerous). In PVP I don't see Righteous Vengeance being a huge issue for it beyond the issues arising from Divine Storm itself; if you want the full duration, you're using it on something outside your Divine Storm range. Personally, I always found more use for it as an interrupt.

Announcement makes the changes less worrisome for PVE Ret though, glad to hear that.
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Postby uke » Thu Oct 16, 2008 9:16 am

And yet we STILL have no way to deal with stunlocks, kiting, cc'ing, etc that pallys are very vulnerable to.

We HAVE to have that burst to be competitive. We might only get a few seconds to take down a mage or hunter as they're kiting us, unable to get into melee range. We have a very small window of opportunity to burst down that rogue that is stunlocking us into oblivion. We have precious seconds to inflict damage on that warlock that's "lolfeardotdotdotdot" spamming us down as we run around like a headless chicken.

If they want to tone down our burst, fine, as long as they help our glaring weaknesses that make the burst critical for staying somewhat competitive.
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Postby Lore » Thu Oct 16, 2008 9:18 am

Hand of Freedom? Divine Shield? Yeah you can't spam them but if you use them properly you kill whatever's causing you the problems anyway.

Also, with enough crit chance, Art of War FOL spam makes me pretty much unstoppable.
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Postby adacus79 » Thu Oct 16, 2008 9:18 am

Well i specced ret last night and tied our top dps'er needless to say my gm dusted off his warrior and vows to go tank again. "shrug" tanking = fun.... bashing stuff with large sticks = fun no matter to me.

now on topic... I just logged out. Just finished reading all 4 pages of this thread and i have one question .... what nerf? I cant tell a difference on live. ok so in a duel against my ms war buddie i now have to stun burst.. stun hammer. instead of stun .... kill. again no viable difference =) but we have always pwoned in duels.
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