Ret nerfed hard via unannounced hotfix.

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Postby caboom » Thu Oct 16, 2008 1:00 am

Joanadark wrote:
i doubt it if u have haste gear, since command scales with haste now.


except haste isnt that great.


since command scales with ap and therfore haste, and there are no mana probs anymore, it is that great xD

Ar Pen was great because w/o anyway to scale command dmg with available gear(str/ap, haste and arm pen were the stats on ret gear and command was scaling with spell dmg) it enhanced CS and auto-attack dmg. However haste was influencing SoB and therefore horde paladins had it better if they stacked some haste, that also explains how they did well on Brutallus and other fights.

retpaladin.com say that now haste is 2nd most important stat for pve after strenght.
Last edited by caboom on Thu Oct 16, 2008 1:14 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby 2ndNin » Thu Oct 16, 2008 1:12 am

I ran through SH and Shettek last night on heroic, and being honest I wasn't that impressed with Ret damage, overall the DPS went:

Ret Paladin (T6 Gear) --- 34%
Prot Paladin (Badge gear - Me) --- 31%
Mage doing single target dps --- 26%ish
Shadow priest doing single target dps --- 19%
Resto Druid - Healer

Barring, basically the %ages line up roughly with where they should be in an AoE instance from my historical experiences, the mage was a little low, but he wasn't AoEing, and the Shadow Priest was spending more time becoming a little shadow ball than dpsing, while me and the retadin were going nuts smashing stuff. I haven't really seen the insane DPS that people are talking about, yes its high but nothing unusually high so far.
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Postby caboom » Thu Oct 16, 2008 1:16 am

2ndNin wrote:I ran through SH and Shettek last night on heroic, and being honest I wasn't that impressed with Ret damage, overall the DPS went:

Ret Paladin (T6 Gear) --- 34%
Prot Paladin (Badge gear - Me) --- 31%
Mage doing single target dps --- 26%ish
Shadow priest doing single target dps --- 19%
Resto Druid - Healer

Barring, basically the %ages line up roughly with where they should be in an AoE instance from my historical experiences, the mage was a little low, but he wasn't AoEing, and the Shadow Priest was spending more time becoming a little shadow ball than dpsing, while me and the retadin were going nuts smashing stuff. I haven't really seen the insane DPS that people are talking about, yes its high but nothing unusually high so far.


As i've said the problem is not in the class but in the ppl's closed minds.
That can only be fixed with an axe. >.>
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Re: Ret nerfed hard via unannounced hotfix.

Postby fafhrd » Thu Oct 16, 2008 2:07 am

Io.Draco wrote:
Dianora wrote:Divine Storm is now physical damage. That's about 50% reduction damage on bosses. Seal of Command also nerfed.

Well, the QQer wins.


The QQer win a fair fight in my opinion

It does not fuck up pvp for us , it just means other people can have a chance at beating us even if we stun em and unload all we got

Also as pointed sunders AND blood frenzy will make up for it in PvE up to a point , although admitely it is nerfed


It's still a fairly large nerf :S Pre-3.0 you could get bosses down to 0 armor with debuffs and good gear (well, not sure if ret pallies could, but hunters definitely could) - post 3.0 even with ludicrous amounts of armor pen gear (42% passive) and full debuffs, a low armor boss will still have near 1700 armor left :(

Our faithful retadin managed a solid 3rd on brutallus and most other fights tonigh (strangely low on muru, not sure why), and first on Kil'jaeden (and on several earlier KJ wipes, he was both #1 damage and #1 healing done)
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Postby Sarkan-ZdC » Thu Oct 16, 2008 2:26 am

Is that sure? That hot-fix?

Would be disappointing. But high melee dps with no armor against is hard to balance true. So armor-pen will be useful for ret..

Question:

If they make the change and say: Improved Rigtheouss Fury gives -6% Damage and.. let's say +45% threat from physical attacks, now that would be great for reckoning, right?

Would make it at least decent?
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Postby Fenris » Thu Oct 16, 2008 3:14 am

Io.Draco wrote:seal of coruption/vegeance is the new dps seal lolz

So now ret will do the exact same dmg of an arms warrior in a pvp setting.

Without ms,that's it.



Oh,joy.... Confused


Divine storm still heals , just don't dis it so fast , rets still are good in PvP

Now they still may be.


But i cant stop thinking that history is repeating from the 2.0 times,and we all know how well retribution evolved for pvp in tbc...


At least this time pve is not as screwed as it was that time...
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Postby 2ndNin » Thu Oct 16, 2008 3:28 am

High damage and no armour is easy to balance, they called it a mage.

Basically Retribution has to do high burst damage due to the 2H weapon mechanics (few hits, misses painful, but hefty when they hit). Holy damage was essentially the tool to stop Paladins needing to have an armour debuff, stuns / snares (pre 3.0.2 with 7/20 of the fight cc'd potentially).

Essentially, Paladins as a whole lack things to do baseline, so our trees need to be powerful.

Imagine Retribution with the following:

Baseline:
Holy Strike: Your next white attack instead deals [Damage+0.25AP] Holy damage (increase in damage vs white attack, similar to heroic)
Holy Poke: Instant cast, 2/3rds the damage of exorcism
Divine Inspiration: After receiving a critical effect on a Holy Spell (damage or healing), you gain a buff allowing your next Holy Light to be instant cast but cannot crit.

With something like that, Retribution can now heal (and thus can have lower dps as its survivability went up in pvp), holy strike means you can shift some damage out of crusader strike, divine storm into the baseline strike, Holy Poke won't go into the Protection rotation as its too low TPS, however it will get added to Holy / Ret (more damage shifted out).

Its easy enough to balance the class, but to make a 2H weapon system work, you need to either:

a) Live with massive burst damage
b) Provide a combo type mechanic (vengence + several other stacks)
c) Provide a large number of alternate routes to damage
d) Nerf and qq.

a) is the current situation, 3 abilities + judgement as the whole damage rotation.

b) Combo mechanics work well, they nerf burst damage (no stacks) in return for sustained damage (not like the old vengence which was rng), this means Ret suffers in fast / movement fights as they need to stack, you can do a trick like Sunder though:

Righteous Vengence: Increases Holy damage against the target by 3%, stacks to 10.

Fury of the Faithful: Increases your critical chance against the target by 4%, stacks to 5

Zeal: Your auto attacks for the next 10s automatically applies one additional stack of Righteous Vengence, and increases your haste by 9001

Suddenly Ret has its balance point at 8-9 stacks in a boss fight (ie: its PvE sustained DPS number is balanced around getting a good number of stacks on the boss), and its pvp potential is lowered. In burst situations they use Zeal to smack on 4-5 stacks of vengence in a short time however while they ramp up they are still lower dps.

c) Spread the load, more strikes, more cooldowns, instant and gcd based stuff weaved in means each strike can do less damage. Raw burst potential lowered due to extended cooldowns. Requires the implementation of some form of stun / control mechanics to allow the dps to actually kill something (Rogues don't worry a prot pally when we aren't stunned... they can't actually hurt us, when stunned we do die however).

d) Nerf, qq, Blizzards typical route, it doesn't work, it makes Ret worse and doesn't really solve the problem, so far I haven't seen this imba dps imbalance, will test further, but this seems like a PvP nerf to be honest, and not a good one because (and I don't pvp so this is hearsay) that other classes can burst just as hard as Ret.
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Postby PsiVen » Thu Oct 16, 2008 3:44 am

I was quite happy with my DPS last night and ability to cast DS while silenced. /shrug
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Postby caboom » Thu Oct 16, 2008 3:57 am

PsiVen wrote:I was quite happy with my DPS last night and ability to cast DS while silenced. /shrug


can u give some numbers ?

And what's your gear like ? What seal were you using ?
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Postby 2ndNin » Thu Oct 16, 2008 4:59 am

Our Ret Paladin was 1.5k dps roughly in SH.
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Postby caboom » Thu Oct 16, 2008 5:18 am

2ndNin wrote:Our Ret Paladin was 1.5k dps roughly in SH.


that sounds a bit bad, did he have windfury?

Anyways can't w8 for the weekend to try it out :P
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Postby 2ndNin » Thu Oct 16, 2008 5:25 am

Kings and Might only.

Prot Pally
Ret Pally
Mage
Shadow Priest
Resto Bear

Hardly a stacked party, but a reasonable test since he was throwing consecrates around same as me.
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Postby caboom » Thu Oct 16, 2008 5:37 am

2ndNin wrote:Kings and Might only.

Prot Pally
Ret Pally
Mage
Shadow Priest
Resto Bear

Hardly a stacked party, but a reasonable test since he was throwing consecrates around same as me.


Not going OOM is not a new thing, it happens cuz of this talent : http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=31878

I am guessing that was pre hotfix right ?

Going back to the thread GC made in the Beta forums he's prolly feeling the hate atm, since everyone posting there sounds pissed out of mind. Since i am going ret in wrath i hope it won't be that bad when they end with this fix.
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Postby Joanadark » Thu Oct 16, 2008 7:14 am

since command scales with ap and therfore haste, and there are no mana probs anymore, it is that great xD

Ar Pen was great because w/o anyway to scale command dmg with available gear(str/ap, haste and arm pen were the stats on ret gear and command was scaling with spell dmg) it enhanced CS and auto-attack dmg. However haste was influencing SoB and therefore horde paladins had it better if they stacked some haste, that also explains how they did well on Brutallus and other fights.

retpaladin.com say that now haste is 2nd most important stat for pve after strenght.


hmm...i see. interesting.
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Postby Nalyn » Thu Oct 16, 2008 7:18 am

I knew it wasn't going to last, but as a couple others have said, I just can't shake the feeling this is going to be 2.0 all over again. Ie, bunch of talents and new abilities that balance at the new max level, but at the current max, with maxed out, or close to maxed out gear, it's a bit OP'ed.
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