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Ret nerfed hard via unannounced hotfix.

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Postby Kanazuchi » Fri Oct 17, 2008 9:42 am

Evidently I've been doing something wrong. As a ret pally in PvE (and PvP what should be the DPS cycle? I'm looking around for an answer yet can't seem to find one and having read this thread it seems I shouldn't be using SoC as much as I do.
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Postby Falkman » Fri Oct 17, 2008 9:43 am

Seal of Blood/Martyr is generally seen as the PvE dps seal, so you should probably be using that.
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Postby Sabindeus » Fri Oct 17, 2008 9:45 am

caboom wrote:
Sabindeus wrote:
caboom wrote:
Sabindeus wrote:
caboom wrote:
Levantine wrote:That still do more than Command?


i doubt it if u have haste gear, since command scales with haste now.


how does command scale with haste now? as far as I know, nothing changed.


retpaladin.com ppl are saying it does, and there is a long thread there about it. :P


Where? Link? I looked a bit and couldn't find anyone saying that haste was helping.


http://www.retpaladin.com/warcraft/foru ... f=4&t=1056


Oh yeah it obviously relies on the implication that you do have the Command glyph :P

On DPS of both matter it seems SoB still wins but not by so much, and tests were only done w/o raidbuffs(again the test there is with the command glyph and librams wich are atm vastly superior to what sob gets).


yes I read that thread and it seems horribly inconclusive. Specifically the test done by the OP was shown to be meaningless by Slayton in this post:

Drops wrote:
Didn't Slayton post something about our attacks being normalized to 3.3 (like warriors), not 3.6 and scaling with DPS?


That is correct.

This parse is wrong and can't be taken into consideration, if you throw in instant attacks into a parse you are going to possibly see an inflated number. Command procing off instant attacks is done at a 3.3 speed, and the 6.9~ppm that command has is for white attacks, throwing instants wont keep it the same, but actually increase your chances since the two don't interact on any sort of timer.


If you didn't follow just know that you can't sit here and test if its scaling on haste by throwing instants into the mix.
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Postby Splug » Fri Oct 17, 2008 10:08 am

kurros wrote:
Io.Draco wrote:You do realize ret eats melee classes for breakfeast and have a problem killig clothies if they play right


And that is exactly how it should be. Rogues and warriors needed a class that can dominate them, they have been the top of the pvp food chain for too long. Virtually every 2v2 arena team is either rogue or warrior based.
Right, so they reduced the effectiveness against the classes that were having the most trouble with them and made a small change to those that have a means of kiting and getting some distance. Seems like the right way to handle things to me.

So I finally decided to put Splugadin's talent points in yesterday and zoom around pvpland. Overall, retribution is still fairly absurd in battlegrounds. The damage level is certainly higher than I saw on my warrior (as prot or arms, haven't touched fury yet) and about comparable to my rogue (mutilate), but the real breaking point is the survivability. Recovering to full takes a 2.5 second cast (and occasionally an instant flash) instead of an 8-second bandage or sitting and eating. During combat, I can pull enough stray healing from instant flashes to get a non-trivial edge, freedom removing stun is amazing, and then divine shield/lay hands are pretty much full-health resets. Mana's a complete non-issue; the only time I oom'd was when I was trying to show a friend how effective ret healing was and couldn't crit to get a sheath proc. And even then, rather than sitting to drink I just ran up and judged someone, then kept fighting. As far as damage goes, even post nerf, any sub-200 resil player is dead within about 5 seconds. Players with resilience tend to take long enough to come up from hammer of justice at 40% health, at which point the next autoattack puts them in range for hammer of wrath and it's about over. Healers were a little tricky, but the ones that had sufficient resilience to survive HoJ were still going to go out of mana long before I did, and were making no headway at all on actually harming me.

There was one priest I ran into who would have won if I had not broken off. Smart bastard; figured out that I was trying to fight with ~2000ms latency, and that if he just kept moving my autoattacks/CS were never in range to hit him, so I had to try to burn him down using only judgement and lucky divine storms. But in general, despite the 2 second lag time on abilities, the damage level I was holding was fairly amazing and things seemed fairly unstoppable.

Hunters and mages can get away with a bit of kiting, and if similarly geared players blew their cooldowns while divine shield wasn't available there was a pretty good chance they won, but even then it wasn't a sure thing either way.

Unfortunately, Illidan is experiencing considerable technical issues, and we get transfer aborted errors about 50% of the time when trying to join battlegrounds. Arenas seemed to be closer to 80% at prime time, and we were getting losses for the skipped games. So unfortunately the only arena I played involved a warrior and myself demolishing a warlock before his partner could unstealth, so I don't have any feel for how things really do work in arenas.

I'll see if I can get some actual arena games in over the weekend to see how things play out against more coordinated opponents, but ret is at a fairly serious advantage in the uncoordinated clusterfucks that are battlegrounds. I understand that's a booby prize at best, but we'll see how that carries over into arenas. For now, the "nerf" seems like if anything it wasn't enough to balance out lv 70, but as I'd mentioned my testing ground was limited by server issues.

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Last edited by Splug on Fri Oct 17, 2008 10:13 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Pallyshock » Fri Oct 17, 2008 10:10 am

I am really disappointed with all the QQ in this thread. I had come to expect more from the readers of this forum.

Ret needed a nerf. Ret got a nerf. Let's all move on.
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Postby Kanazuchi » Fri Oct 17, 2008 10:10 am

Falkman wrote:Seal of Blood/Martyr is generally seen as the PvE dps seal, so you should probably be using that.


Damn...guess I need to put in a different glyph then.
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Postby Kelaan » Fri Oct 17, 2008 11:16 am

Sabindeus wrote:do THEY have a chance at the good players?

I'm gonna go with no.


Since I'm not yet a good player as Ret, I'll handle that hurdle whenI get there. :)
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Postby Kayoto » Fri Oct 17, 2008 11:38 am

Kanazuchi wrote:
Falkman wrote:Seal of Blood/Martyr is generally seen as the PvE dps seal, so you should probably be using that.


Damn...guess I need to put in a different glyph then.



Seal of the Martyr is currently bugged for Alliance players and doing less damage than it should be.

So stick with Command for the time being if you rolled the wrong faction. :P
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Postby Sabindeus » Fri Oct 17, 2008 11:48 am

Pallyshock wrote:I am really disappointed with all the QQ in this thread. I had come to expect more from the readers of this forum.

Ret needed a nerf. Ret got a nerf. Let's all move on.


You're kidding, right?
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Postby Sabindeus » Fri Oct 17, 2008 11:48 am

Kayoto wrote:
Kanazuchi wrote:
Falkman wrote:Seal of Blood/Martyr is generally seen as the PvE dps seal, so you should probably be using that.


Damn...guess I need to put in a different glyph then.



Seal of the Martyr is currently bugged for Alliance players and doing less damage than it should be.

So stick with Command for the time being if you rolled the wrong faction. :P


oh go to hell. I've had my paladin for longer than you;ve been playing this game.
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Postby Velgarn » Fri Oct 17, 2008 11:51 am

Kanazuchi wrote:
Falkman wrote:Seal of Blood/Martyr is generally seen as the PvE dps seal, so you should probably be using that.


Damn...guess I need to put in a different glyph then.


Last I read SoComm was ahead as long as you had a 3.6+ speed weapon and the glyph. However, things have likely changed yet again. :lol:
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Postby fafhrd » Fri Oct 17, 2008 11:52 am

Someone's touchy today...
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Postby Kayoto » Fri Oct 17, 2008 11:55 am

fafhrd wrote:Someone's touchy today...


Jokes about WoW factions are SRS BUSINES

I think Sabin does forum searches every day for posts containing the words "Horde", "Alliance" or "faction" and attempts to reply to them as angrily as possible :O
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Postby Sabindeus » Fri Oct 17, 2008 11:56 am

fafhrd wrote:Someone's touchy today...


I'm really sick of this Blood Elf/horde superiority crap that I'm seeing so very very often on these forums lately. It's like some people forgot that there were Paladins in the game before Burning Crusade.
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Postby Sabindeus » Fri Oct 17, 2008 11:56 am

Kayoto wrote:
fafhrd wrote:Someone's touchy today...


Jokes about WoW factions are SRS BUSINES

I think Sabin does forum searches every day for posts containing the words "Horde", "Alliance" or "faction" and attempts to reply to them as angrily as possible :O


Don't need to search, they're all at the top of the first page. :/
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