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Ret nerfed hard via unannounced hotfix.

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Postby Karock » Thu Oct 16, 2008 7:18 pm

It doesn't really seem that hard to understand to me that...

With very nice burst, ret paladin killed people by overwhelming them with CD abilities before they could keep up.

With okay burst ret paladin can't quite overwhelm people with our CD abilities meaning they're easy to heal back up since we have no way to stop it.

In other words the over-the-top burst was dealing with the ISSUES that the class has in a way, a bad way but it WAS dealing with the issues. Without that burst there is no bandaid left.

Anyways I don't really care that much about ret pvp though I hope Blizzard can bring themselves to care since it will be one of only two specs viable for paladin in arenas. My main concern is how reliant physical damage is on warriors to be there sundering... weren't we supposed to move away from required classes?

(And before you ask I want druid to get MotW changed to a kings equal buff when improved)

EDIT: I'm not noticing any big difference in my judgment of command personally, still 2800 with only might and a 3 stack of vengeance for me which is what I remember it being around before. Up to about 3500 with a proc or two up and raid buffed.
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Postby Sabindeus » Thu Oct 16, 2008 9:14 pm

caboom wrote:
Sabindeus wrote:
caboom wrote:
Levantine wrote:That still do more than Command?


i doubt it if u have haste gear, since command scales with haste now.


how does command scale with haste now? as far as I know, nothing changed.


retpaladin.com ppl are saying it does, and there is a long thread there about it. :P


Where? Link? I looked a bit and couldn't find anyone saying that haste was helping.
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Postby Garath.Gorefiend » Thu Oct 16, 2008 10:36 pm

Frankly, I do understand the nerf.

I have done quite a bit of tanking on both the PTR and on Live since the patch.

I have only lost aggro 3 times.

Once was an oops when I hit the wrong hot key and DS'd myself heh...

The other two times were both to Ret Paladins who Opened with a Divine Storm that happened to crit big time on a trash wave...

In each case, the ret paladin managed to die quite quickly.

Frankly, when I have been running instances, the one change I have noticed is that a good Ret paladin is usually on top of the DPS charts...

I am not saying that they shouldnt be up there, but I think this may well smooth there damage a bit and make them not quite so bursty.

But then again, stuff dies so fast on live at present, it could be that they are topping the charts simply because they do burst so much and the other dps classes dont have time to scale up their damage.
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Postby Vander Nars » Thu Oct 16, 2008 11:20 pm

The devs are morons they need to just add a healing debuff to crusader strike and not added all them +dmg on crits and there wouldnt be a burst problem
Last edited by Vander Nars on Fri Oct 17, 2008 11:16 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby caboom » Thu Oct 16, 2008 11:38 pm

Sabindeus wrote:
caboom wrote:
Sabindeus wrote:
caboom wrote:
Levantine wrote:That still do more than Command?


i doubt it if u have haste gear, since command scales with haste now.


how does command scale with haste now? as far as I know, nothing changed.


retpaladin.com ppl are saying it does, and there is a long thread there about it. :P


Where? Link? I looked a bit and couldn't find anyone saying that haste was helping.


http://www.retpaladin.com/warcraft/foru ... f=4&t=1056


Oh yeah it obviously relies on the implication that you do have the Command glyph :P

On DPS of both matter it seems SoB still wins but not by so much, and tests were only done w/o raidbuffs(again the test there is with the command glyph and librams wich are atm vastly superior to what sob gets).
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Postby Bobness » Fri Oct 17, 2008 12:29 am

Of all the changes the one to repentance stands out to be strange.... I don't get it at all.

The only time a 10 Sec Stun is of use is if you are going to leave said opponent stunned (e.g Arena).

Ret Was OP in lvl70 BG's that much was clear, never got to 80 in beta so can't comment on that.

It was blindingly obvious that every Ret Ability getting exponentially better when used against a stunned opponent was going to be an issue at 70 particularly given the amount of Crit we have.

What was dumb beyond believe was allowing it to hit live...

There has always been a weakness in the design philosophy of Ret Paladins.

Burst & Bust.

in TBC a Ret Paladin was dishing decent Burst in good Gear but would run out of mana & stand there autoattacking, additionally healing was for shit.

Here we are post patch with a whole lot of everything.

However we have all our abilities at 70 which will inevitably mean ....us tailing off between 70 - 80.


Personally i'm ok With Burst reduced but overall DPS maintained as long as we don't run dry & healing can be pivotal where required.

Strange however we're balancing again at 70 for 80....

My Twink Hunter is a Joke in the 29 Bracket nothing comes close to it, but they aren't balancing the game at that level...

"TO THE GROUND BABY" whilst hugely funny has been seized upon by the gibbering masses... Paladin forums are lol atm..

I don't know if any of the Hot Fixes went into EU Yesterday but if they did i didn't notice any preceivable difference.
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Postby Proudfoot » Fri Oct 17, 2008 5:10 am

I've played a Ret Pally since original beta and I've always wished that Ret would someday be equal to other classes in the eyes of developers. Well that day has come... but I could see the nerf coming after running around in BG's for a while. My pally does great damage, on par with mages, rogues, hunters, boomkin now but the great part is the survivability. We can acutally heal now for a good amount and casting HL is worth the time to cast. The nerf to burst was needed but we can't ignore the fact that we don't have some of the other needed PVP tools. Interupts, snares, healing debuff, distance closers... and thus higher burst? I don't know how to balance this without giving us similar affects.

On the other hand I have an Enhancement Shaman and pre 3.0 my shaman felt much more competent in PVP then my pally did. It felt like a much more complete class. We have an interupt, a snare, and ghostwolf to run faster and catch up. Post 3.0 however my shaman is nowhere near as good as my pally. He does decent damage but the problem is he doesn't live long enough to do much. I know this is a Paladin forum and my main will always be my Pally but shaman need some love right now I hate to say. Everyones damage has gone up sooo much that we die almost instantly in every combat. I think they should up the damage reduction on Shamanistic Rage to something like 60%. Also it would be nice to see a heal added to the shamanistic focus talent. Something like "Reduces the cost of your shock spells by 45% and causes your shock spells heal you for 10% of your total health". The instant cast heals that Art of War gives are FAR better then maelstrom weapon even though maelstrom has damage spells included.

Maybe I'm a sadist but it's almost not fun to play my pally... it's like the FOTM and I hate it. I don't think I've seen one holy or prot pally in the last 2 days. I liked being a unique spec and still dominating people. I like to do something people don't expect and now everyone is Ret.
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Postby caboom » Fri Oct 17, 2008 6:03 am

Proudfoot wrote:Maybe I'm a sadist but it's almost not fun to play my pally... it's like the FOTM and I hate it. I don't think I've seen one holy or prot pally in the last 2 days. I liked being a unique spec and still dominating people. I like to do something people don't expect and now everyone is Ret.


That's what Flavour Of The Month is, short lasting, in one month everyone will be DK not ret. And maybe in 2 months time everyone will be back to their classes. :D
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Postby daemonym » Fri Oct 17, 2008 6:25 am

i truly believe this is a balanced update, not a nerf. stun, blow all your instant attacks and they have about 6 seconds to notice where you are, get away and snare before you kill them with another lolburst where as before, it was stun, 3 seconds to break the stun and run away, oh wait now you're dead. and in pve they still can do very impressive damage.

i did heroic bot last night and the ret pally in greens and blues and like 1-2 epics was second on damage not far behind a t5 well skilled mage. granted consecration + infinite mana likely helped a bit =p

if making us climb up the damage charts while under geared is considered a nerf, please nerf prot some more too please ^^
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Postby Garath.Gorefiend » Fri Oct 17, 2008 6:31 am

daemonym wrote:i truly believe this is a balanced update, not a nerf. stun, blow all your instant attacks and they have about 6 seconds to notice where you are, get away and snare before you kill them with another lolburst where as before, it was stun, 3 seconds to break the stun and run away, oh wait now you're dead. and in pve they still can do very impressive damage.

i did heroic bot last night and the ret pally in greens and blues and like 1-2 epics was second on damage not far behind a t5 well skilled mage. granted consecration + infinite mana likely helped a bit =p

if making us climb up the damage charts while under geared is considered a nerf, please nerf prot some more too please ^^


Not sure why you feel prot needs a nerf, we arent exactly topping the charts in arena or BG's.

Have done several runs with equally geared warriors, and I am not better that they are.
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Postby daemonym » Fri Oct 17, 2008 6:46 am

Garath.Gorefiend wrote:
Not sure why you feel prot needs a nerf, we arent exactly topping the charts in arena or BG's.

Have done several runs with equally geared warriors, and I am not better that they are.


it was a silly statement that if ret being able to top damage charts is a "nerf" then i want prot to be "nerfed" as well. in other words where people QQ and see a nerf i smile and see buffs.
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Postby Falkman » Fri Oct 17, 2008 6:50 am

The nerf to Divine storm was probably needed, even though it's always sad to see smaller numbers on screen :P
I just did a full ZA clear and I topped damage done by a marginal of 600k, and the guy after me was a good geared mage, so I do not think we're too nerfed :P
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Postby kurros » Fri Oct 17, 2008 8:57 am

Ret needed a nerf, but the form of the nerf is rather stupid IMO. changing holy to physical makes it a big nerf against warriors, other paladins, and shaman, while it's barely a nerf at all against cloth classes.

Should have just reduced the damage by 20% or 30% or whatever would be balanced and left it as holy, so it would still cut through warrior armor.
Anyway, lets just agree to disagree. Go away, or I'll just start reporting you to the mods for being a troll. In exchange, I'll stop pointing out your stupid in public.
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Postby Io.Draco » Fri Oct 17, 2008 9:02 am

You do realize ret eats melee classes for breakfeast and have a problem killig clothies if they play right
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Postby kurros » Fri Oct 17, 2008 9:30 am

Io.Draco wrote:You do realize ret eats melee classes for breakfeast and have a problem killig clothies if they play right


And that is exactly how it should be. Rogues and warriors needed a class that can dominate them, they have been the top of the pvp food chain for too long. Virtually every 2v2 arena team is either rogue or warrior based.
Anyway, lets just agree to disagree. Go away, or I'll just start reporting you to the mods for being a troll. In exchange, I'll stop pointing out your stupid in public.
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