TPS too high? -edit- JoL gives a few thousand TPS!

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Postby Spectrum » Fri Oct 17, 2008 5:18 pm

Wow, this is interesting. I was definitely using it last night in Kara and never had an issue on the bosses, but on trash I had a few problems. I was using Sun Eater instead of a SP mace though.

I'll be investigating and watching posts closely.
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Postby knaughty » Fri Oct 17, 2008 5:47 pm

Angelus wrote:I'm going to assume the only way this is possible is if the heals caused by JoL are not affected by the threat modifier on healing spells.

Heals usually only cause .5 threat for each point healed. Paladin heals only cause .25 threat per point healed. Unless this has changed? It's been a while since I actively looked it up, but this was pretty well accepted.

I believe that it's Holy Light / FoL (and maybe shock) that have the 0.25 modifier.

JoL procs have a 0.5 modifier.

RF Applies for *1.9

No idea what the "backed in Salvation" does, but I think that it's acting as another chunk of bonus threat for prot pallies.

Prot pally "threat cycle" is by most accounts, 2,000 to 2,500 TPS in my gear (BT + 4/6 Sunwell).

Using threat = Healing x (0.5 x 1.43 x 1.9), I had a calculated threat bonus at Felmyst of about 3,200 TPS over the two 1 minute ground phases. Add in my "real" threat of about 2k, and we're at "more than 5k TPS".

The prot warrior MT saw me get over 6000 TPS just before I pulled Felmyst off him. There's no other possible explanation, personally, I think JoL actually peaked at about 5k TPS, because I simply wasn't going that hard on the boss - SoV stack, pretty much.

Over the entire night, 5/6 Sunwell, JoL healed for as much as the resto-shaman, putting me in equal second for healing. There's simply nowhere else the threat could have been coming from.

Same issue at Twins. I was one of the two tanks on the melee twin, and I had threat issues - my threat was lower than on other bosses, noticeably so. So I pop wings, etc, to keep up with the warrior tank. We switch to the second twin, who I've done nothing to - and I'm second on threat by a huge margin, well ahead of the other healers. Jodge Light on second twin, proceed to peel it off the ranged tank and wipe us.
(1) The only threat I could possibly have on second twin before the switch is heal threat, and I had a ton.
(2) My threat on first twin was lower than expected... because my heal threat was split between the twins!

Trash was the same, come to think of it. Threat on robots was huge, not so big on the 4-pack and 6-pack pulls.

Hopefully GC sees this and JoL gets changed to "no threat".
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Postby Io.Draco » Fri Oct 17, 2008 5:50 pm

Hopefully GC sees this and JoL gets changed to "no threat".


And why do you hope for that?

Seriously I just love those people that whine about being overpowered in a aspect realy

are you morrons?

They will fix it eventualy anyway no need to rush it
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Postby knaughty » Fri Oct 17, 2008 6:52 pm

Io.Draco wrote:
Hopefully GC sees this and JoL gets changed to "no threat".


And why do you hope for that?

Seriously I just love those people that whine about being overpowered in a aspect realy

Because it broken and inconvenient.
• I don't want zero to 4k TPS from JoL which varies by encounter mechanic.
• I don't want to tank Felmyst if I'm not supposed to tank Felmyst....
• It also means ret can't safely judge Light for fear of threat problems.
• I'm in danger of peeling second twin, or any other similar encounter.. EG: 4-horseman.

Broken is Broken. The fact it "helps" is no better than if it didn't help.

If our TPS/DPS is too low, I don't want the fix to be "judge light and heal-tank the boss".

Posted to main forum, I imagine it will be lost in the QQ.

http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/threa ... 3113&sid=1
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Postby Pzone » Fri Oct 17, 2008 7:19 pm

Did some testing with a friend of mine on a Lv 63 Elite out in zangarmarsh. Had RF up and was faced away from the mob with concentration aura on.

First test, I hit the mob once, and then started overhealing my buddy. caused 0 threat. Tested when both of us were in combat and when he was out of combat.

2nd Test, I used JoL got my friend to attack the mob, the proc'd overheals of JoL caused no threat.

3rd test, I got my friend to get to about 2k hp. Used JoL on the mob. Every time the JoL proc'd I gained about 200 Threat, and was standing at about 80TPS while not hitting the mob. I'm not that greatly geared either, so my heals were proc'ing for about 152HP.

After that test was done. I tested JoW, while he was at full mana, I gained No threat. My friend then spammed earthshield to about half his MP pool, every proc of JoW he got I gained about 100threat.

Last and final test. I used JoJ as assumed, it provided me with no threat while my friend was attacking mob.

Tool tips on procs for each judge - 225 JoL/112 JoW

To sum things up every time hp was restored or mana was restored due to JoL/JoW proc's. It adds threat to the judger either JoW/JoL. Now that was simply testing with only one paladin judge up.
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Postby knaughty » Fri Oct 17, 2008 7:52 pm

Pzone wrote:3rd test, I got my friend to get to about 2k hp. Used JoL on the mob. Every time the JoL proc'd I gained about 200 Threat, and was standing at about 80TPS while not hitting the mob. I'm not that greatly geared either, so my heals were proc'ing for about 152HP.


152 x 0.5 (healing modifier) x 1.9 (RF) = 144. Too low.
152 x 0.5 (healing modifier) x 1.9 (RF) x 1.43 = 206 = about 200.
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Postby Petrus » Sat Oct 18, 2008 1:09 am

I didn't see a whole lot of noticable difference in my threat in BT with Light vs. Wisdom but they were both a little higher than Justice, which I ended up using on Bloodboil. It's the most similar to the old 'normal' judgement, which essentially only deals damage. Either way, I had no threat problems and left the Wisdom or Light to the Ret and Holy paladins respectively.
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Postby knaughty » Sat Oct 18, 2008 5:21 am

JoL procs have been halved, doing 250-300 for me now.

So it's only be 1-2k at Felmyst :roll:
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Postby Ragingsoul » Sat Oct 18, 2008 4:51 pm

same for me on farm raids, at gruul, jol was doing 1k tps by itself. I has to stop attacking because I was pulling from MT. after 20 sec, I was like, what the hell, and started dps, and made 2 or 3x the other tanks aggro.

then, an hour later, on Leo, I died during the phase change, because judgment was still on the demon form, and lock couldn't take aggro of it, I panicked a bit, and didn't bubble in time.
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JoL

Postby kurtizzle » Sun Oct 19, 2008 11:01 am

What happens if a Ret Pally decides to judge Linght then after we have applied it does he overwrite it and therefore negate our imba threat?

Was OT in hyjal the other day but ended up doing some healing for the bosses. I had quite high threat just from keeping JoL up on the boss.
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Postby steadypal » Sun Oct 19, 2008 11:32 am

is it hotfixed or working as intended at this point?
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Postby moduspwnens » Sun Oct 19, 2008 12:08 pm

steadypal wrote:is it hotfixed or working as intended at this point?


Well, it's not necessarily bugged, right? I mean, PoM and Earth Shield now generate threat for the caster. Why should JoL be any different?
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Postby steadypal » Sun Oct 19, 2008 12:16 pm

moduspwnens wrote:
steadypal wrote:is it hotfixed or working as intended at this point?


Well, it's not necessarily bugged, right? I mean, PoM and Earth Shield now generate threat for the caster. Why should JoL be any different?



so im dumb to judge wisdom??



and u dont think its gonna get nerfed??


if raid is all topped off hp is it produce less threat?
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Postby Noradin » Sun Oct 19, 2008 12:27 pm

What about wisdom? It generates mana (and gaining mana causes threat, too) - do we get the threat for it if we were the one to judge it? If yes: How much per point mana generated?
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Postby Fizzgig » Sun Oct 19, 2008 1:00 pm

Noradin wrote:What about wisdom? It generates mana (and gaining mana causes threat, too) - do we get the threat for it if we were the one to judge it? If yes: How much per point mana generated?


Unless it's changed only one person can get the JoW proc per internal CD (4 seconds? I forget). Hopefully that's a bug as well and multiple people can proc it. Personally I'd like it to be some threat but it's currently a little ridiculous.

**edit** I'll still be judging Light anyway for the raid healing now that it scales some and is actually noticeable healing when you look at it over the course of a fight.
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