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Postby fuzzygeek » Mon Oct 06, 2008 5:23 pm

Vesper wrote:If anything, death penalties in WoW are too tame.


There's a reason WoW is as popular as it is. Not having stupid punishments for dying is probably a big one.
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Postby rodos » Mon Oct 06, 2008 10:28 pm

fuzzygeek wrote:
Vesper wrote:If anything, death penalties in WoW are too tame.


There's a reason WoW is as popular as it is. Not having stupid punishments for dying is probably a big one.

Truth. I used to play a lot on one or two MUDs based on the CircleMUD code. The default setup there is:
  • No way to track your corpse if you forget where you died.
  • You have to run back to your corpse alive and naked, and the thing that killed you is probably still their waiting to kill you again.
  • All your items are in "free for all" loot mode for other players and even mobs to collect.
  • You lose a percentrage (up to half) of your total exp, which means a death will probably cost you at least 1 level's worth.
The result is that people who die a few times in short succession either quit the game because they have no hope levelling up for the next 3 months, or turn into griefers because they have nothing left to lose.

Lack of death penalty, and optional world PvP are probably the two biggest factors that bring the "casual" masses to WoW and keep them there.
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Postby Vesper » Tue Oct 07, 2008 11:35 am

fuzzygeek wrote:
Vesper wrote:If anything, death penalties in WoW are too tame.


There's a reason WoW is as popular as it is. Not having stupid punishments for dying is probably a big one.


Of course it is. I didn't mean to imply that WoW's business strategy was a poor one. My response was a tiny bit sardonic.

EQ had one experimental server (for a competition) for a bit where if you died, that was it. Game over. I would have lasted in that environment for all of two seconds.
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Postby Sederia » Tue Oct 07, 2008 11:40 am

EQ, PVP Server(Rallos), Dorf Pally PRE soul binders attempting to make it to Qeynos from Butcherblock without a port as I was poor....


got PK'd in Freeport
got PK'd in Butcherblock at the docks
got PK'd 3 or 4 more times along the way, never did get my bind, did my quest banked everything and just sat afk till I got pk'd again :lol:
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Postby Kelaan » Tue Oct 07, 2008 12:29 pm

Vesper wrote:You people are spoiled! Dying and corpse runs are an art form. Death penalties are such an interesting part of gaming.....

I think the most exhilarating times I had in MMOs were when I felt I had the most to lose... If anything, death penalties in WoW are too tame.


Are you also the type of person that would go for Mayan style genital-piercings-with-thorn-vines, also? I mean ... someone LIKING the death penalty in games? I'm baffled.



Running back to BRD after a bad pull when soloing crap was a bucket full of memories. :D Bittersweet, really -- memories of comraderie and the fun while raiding, along with "oh yeah, I'd forgotten how much I hated this corpse run". I wouldn't trade it away, but ... the run back to Outlands dungeons is so much nicer, hehe.
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Postby PsiVen » Tue Oct 07, 2008 1:01 pm

I am adamantly opposed to heavy death penalties. I'll never understand how people can enjoy playing D2 Hardcore, for example. Sure you have a higher investment in staying alive, but then you lag out and have all of your work destroyed for no reason. WoW is built on the model that reward incentives are always preferable to punishment incentives.

I played a MUD that I now code areas for, where on a 100-level scale the punishment for death is usually about 5 levels and a sizable chunk of total experience. The greatest addicts of the game compete for the highest exp total, and if one of them dies, they usually quit altogether or quietly level back to 100 and stop logging in. The result is a model so punishing that nothing we code is ever allowed to kill the player in a way that cannot be obviously avoided. I discovered when trying to make a difficult multi-player boss monster how painful it was to try and balance around the fact that in order for anyone to desire to learn how to kill him, he had to be pretty much incapable of actually killing them in return.
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Postby Vesper » Tue Oct 07, 2008 1:34 pm

Kelaan wrote:
Vesper wrote:You people are spoiled! Dying and corpse runs are an art form. Death penalties are such an interesting part of gaming.....

I think the most exhilarating times I had in MMOs were when I felt I had the most to lose... If anything, death penalties in WoW are too tame.


Are you also the type of person that would go for Mayan style genital-piercings-with-thorn-vines, also? I mean ... someone LIKING the death penalty in games? I'm baffled.


One of my friends insists I suffer from Stockholm syndrome. :/

I still haven't fully kicked the habit in WoW -- hence my love for hybrid classes. grr.
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Postby koldawne » Tue Oct 07, 2008 5:03 pm

Vesper wrote:I think the most exhilarating times I had in MMOs were when I felt I had the most to lose. PoFear break-ins, Chardok (pre-revamp), the LOIO spider run, wiping in ToFS, falling down the well in Befallen, Plane of Sky before the era of permanent keys...


Oh god..I remember begging in /ooc and guild and getting everyone to beg for people to come and help break fear to get a corpse back..I remember 3 guilds wiping till we finnaly got about 50 characters together for a sucessful attempt..6 hour corpse run anyone?

It sure build up some long relationships tho, you never forgot someone who helped you break fear ;)
Last edited by koldawne on Wed Oct 08, 2008 5:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby ARogers » Wed Oct 08, 2008 12:20 pm

I hate walking back when questing or something. My least favorite is dieing in southwest Tanaris. It's a very very long walk.

It doesn't bother me a bit in raids or instances..... that's what the make /follow for!
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Postby Grokii » Wed Oct 08, 2008 12:58 pm

I liked the death penalties in EQ too. It made the game a lot more real.

Now it's just a run back to your corpse, who cares. If anything that is worse when raiding. We often had people with a cleric alt that tagged along and would log out before the boss fights. If we lost, log in and res so we can just rebuff and try again.

The long walks are bad. I wish we had an option of paying some gold and getting ported right back to your corpse.
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Postby VikrumthePally » Wed Oct 08, 2008 1:33 pm

koldawne wrote:
Vesper wrote:I think the most exhilarating times I had in MMOs were when I felt I had the most to lose. PoFear break-ins, Chardok (pre-revamp), the LOIO spider run, wiping in ToFS, falling down the well in Befallen, Plane of Sky before the era of permanent keys...

Oh god..I remember begging in /ooc and guild and getting everyone to beg for people to come and help break fear to get a corpse back..I remember 3 guilds wiping till we finnaly got about 50 characters together for a sucessful attempt..6 hour corpse run anyone?

It sure build up some long relationships tho, you never forgot someone who helped you break fear ;)


On that note how about the fact that I have seem some 10 man raids in WoW be a ton less organized than 50+ people in EQ with NO VENT. =)

All boils down to the post somewhere someone else made about time. In wow you spend enough time you make it to the end game raids no matter how much fail you are.

Not the case in EQ. If you made it to the end game raiding 99% of the time you were pretty darn good.
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Postby Baelor » Wed Oct 08, 2008 2:38 pm

Never played EQ - what does it mean to "break fear"? It seems to have a different meaning in WoW.
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Postby Vesper » Wed Oct 08, 2008 3:19 pm

Plane of Fear = zone with 57107510751 mobs milling around the zoneline. Once you zone in, you couldn't zone back out in the same spot. Many of these mobs had special abilities -- like fearing players into 20 other mobs. They also chain aggroed very easily (i.e. if you aggroed one mob, 15 more would come, and then 200 more, and then a boss or two, and then half the zone). Breaking Fear was more of an art than a science.

A couple of the mini-bosses in the Plane of Fear could deathtouch (pretty much exactly what it sounds like -- only stuff like EQ's version of paladin bubbles could prevent an instant player death). If they were inadvertently aggroed by a raid of inexperienced, undergeared, unlucky, and/or naked players entering the zone, wacky hijinx and massive corpse counts quickly ensued.

Ironically, the main boss of the Plane of Fear - Cazic Thule - could be fear-kited by players for quite awhile, so there were several drama-filled rants about guilds trivializing a fight through um, creative tactics.
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Postby Sederia » Wed Oct 08, 2008 4:38 pm

Vesper wrote:Plane of Fear = zone with 57107510751 mobs milling around the zoneline. Once you zone in, you couldn't zone back out in the same spot. Many of these mobs had special abilities -- like fearing players into 20 other mobs. They also chain aggroed very easily (i.e. if you aggroed one mob, 15 more would come, and then 200 more, and then a boss or two, and then half the zone). Breaking Fear was more of an art than a science.

A couple of the mini-bosses in the Plane of Fear could deathtouch (pretty much exactly what it sounds like -- only stuff like EQ's version of paladin bubbles could prevent an instant player death). If they were inadvertently aggroed by a raid of inexperienced, undergeared, unlucky, and/or naked players entering the zone, wacky hijinx and massive corpse counts quickly ensued.

that zone in number seems low, but the rest seems right

I had my snake stick and I EARNED it *stupid Harpy thing in PoFear*

PoF breaks went something like Send in a Shadow Knight or 2, send in a healer or 2, send in every Enchanter/Bard you had and hope they could get the train undercontrol quickly
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Postby Eltiana » Thu Oct 09, 2008 7:37 am

Ugh, Died on one of those thorns sticking out on one of the plateaus in Blade's Edge. I missed the jump as a ghost :( Longest corpse run ever. I missed the jump 2 times before I got it right >_<
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