A little unsure on my feelings/thoughts, etc

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Postby Thesupreme » Thu Sep 18, 2008 1:02 am

Heh, last karazhan run I was in was with my warrior, he is slightly undergeared so and granted, he isn't a paladin so you actually need an off-tank at places.. and well.. we didn't have any good class.. so we just took an enhancement shaman. With Karazhan being nerfed through the floor it was not difficult at all. Seriously, I bet a rogue with heavy clefthoof would be able to off tank in Karazhan.
Superman tanks all!

Thesupreme - 70 - Al'Akir - I aint no superman
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Postby solina » Thu Sep 18, 2008 10:05 am

Should have asked the warrior to spec DPS if he was the OT for the evening.

Fun fact: I once attempted Kara with THREE prot warriors. I was the healer, a tree. We never did finish Moroes, I and the other healers were bleeding mana with the fight taking so damn long.
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Postby Balanor » Thu Sep 18, 2008 11:10 am

Assuming you two were geared similarly, I think you not letting him tank 1 is a little ridiculous. He had a valid point in losing out on rage. What I would have had him do is tank his target in your consecrate. His single target threat would have been enough to allow him to keep agro regardless of whether the group AoEs them down or not. That is if he is a decent prot warrior. Wanting to tank everything seems a little bit like epeen stroking and then rubbing it in his face to boot.

AFAIK, there is no mechanic which causes you to lose threat on other mobs when the warrior taunts one off you.

As far as single tanking all of Kara sure it can be done but there are OTHER fights where you are better off letting him tank and you take a supporting role. I can think of the following fights as more suited to you healing/cleansing and letting him tank:

Maiden: Take the role of cleanse bot and keep BoSanc (the one that allows you to take some of his damage) on him so that during repentences when all the other healers are stunned, you can spam some heals on him. Also helps with cleansing the group of holy fire.

Opera R&J: Let him tank juliet so he can shield bash and help interrupt her heals.

Aran: Let him tank/DPS and you help heal. Your single target DPS < his single target DPS. Aside from offtanking some of the ice elementals at the end, we STILL find with +1900 healers that an extra healer helps out.

I understand how great it is not to require an OT but use some teamwork. Even if you dont NEED an OT, it shows teamwork to back down once in a while.
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Postby HollerTH » Thu Sep 18, 2008 12:11 pm

I run kara with a war. What we do is I tank most of the mobs, his are killed first and then he marks and gets ready to pull the next group.

Huntsmen- I take horse he takes the rest, I am almost always oom be the time the horse dies and tanking both doesnt help much.

Moroes- I take all the adds and OT mores, leaving one add up for some mana.

Maiden- he tanks, I dispell/heal/judge

Opera- we do whatever is needed

Curator- I offtank, I find I have more mana by eatting bolts then I do if I was tanking, even counting mana saved on holy shield.

Nightbane- He takes Nightbane, I melee with wisdom for mana to aoe the bones

Illhoof I thank everything, sometimes he picks up the imp in his dps gear

Prince- I Tank him, he is a joke for me and my threat is much higher, as well his dps is higher.

As others have said you should let them have at least 1 mob providing it isnt the last one in a pull. Unless you are using CC or your healers are way overgeared you shouldnt tank all the spell casting ghosts, its unneeded stress on your healers. Just because you can tank everything doesnt mean you should.
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Postby Balanor » Thu Sep 18, 2008 12:26 pm

As others have said you should let them have at least 1 mob providing it isnt the last one in a pull.

Hell, let him take the last mob in a group and you go pull the next group.

Chain pulls for the win.
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Postby Andox » Thu Sep 18, 2008 12:41 pm

Balanor wrote:
As others have said you should let them have at least 1 mob providing it isnt the last one in a pull.

Hell, let him take the last mob in a group and you go pull the next group.

Chain pulls for the win.

Like when we do our badge runs in KZ. I tank the group, one mob left, DPS Warr/Retri taunt and I go and pull the next group. Sometimes we let the DPS dudes handle 2 mobs, if we are aiming for a speed record.
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Postby Oniyoh » Thu Sep 18, 2008 2:32 pm

Heya :P

You know I have been playing WoW for a little over a year, doing it as a prot pally, and the opne thing that always seems to amaze me is warriors. I don't if it's me or if it's just the whole "rival" thing, but warriors and me usually don't get along. Note that I said usually.

Now that being said, you need to be careful how you deal with this, if you are too rough on him, he is going to go crazy and a big debate on "Who iz da butteR tnak!111lol!" will start, which judging from your story, I don't think you would like getting into. (Benifit of the doubt, let me think the best of you :P ) On the other hand, if you let him keep going on like this, your raids are going to be miserable with him in the group.

First things first, you know your a tank. Don't let anyone ever tell you paladins can't tank, because they are full of it. That being said, we shouldn't be like some people when BC first came out and look down on other tanking classes. (Anyone here remember the good old days when people said to us "Lolpallytank", heck a good friend in real life said that flat out to me, oh how wrong he was. :) )

What I would do in your situation is first make sure he has the right spec and gear, a good prot warrior should have no trouble at all pulling a mob from your concecration, as that has already been mentioned. With sunder armor, sheild slam, devastate and whatever else mess those crazy warriors have it works wonders for them on single mobs.

If his gear is in order, and his rotations are all set then he shouldn't have a problem, unless you are an AOE tank from the heavans. Go ahead and give him a mob or two each pull. Now for bosses, it may be a good idea for him and you to take turns rotating between bosses. For example, one week he takes the Huntsman, Curator, and Maiden, and you do Moroes, Prince, and Nightbane (The other bosses really can't be maintanked.), then the next week you guys can rotate. If you want to be "safe" you could set it so that he always does Maiden, and you always do Prince. If you choose to do it this way, you both get experience with the bosses, you both don't get caught ina rut doing the same boss every single week, and he gets to have some fun tanking. (Which is way we roll prot right? :P ) This is of course assuming that he passes the above paragraph and has the gear and talent to actually tank bosses.

Now if he does keep giving you trouble, if he keeps being a jerk while you are trying to work with him. Toss him, if people are not going to be willing to work with you, when you are honestly trying to give them a fair deal in a raid, they aren't worth the headache. As hard as it may seem, if you can't work with someone, you can't work with someone. Cut the loses and go your seperate ways.

Happy Tanking! ^_^
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-Your friendly neighborhood paladin-
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Postby Archimeades » Thu Sep 18, 2008 3:06 pm

The guy agreed to off tank. By definition, that means you let him tank something. If you have 5 mobs on you and he pulls one so he can have rage, why are you spazzing and pulling it back? You basically told him you'd let him do something, then deliberately kept him from being able to do it. Not cool.
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Postby Yukionna » Fri Sep 19, 2008 8:49 am

Considering you were a guest to that guild run, I think you were being very selfish no matter how whiny he was. Not saying he was completely right, you both took part in this little "game".

I've been in taunting wars with other paladins and that can make 30 mins of trash seem like 2 hours of trash.

Try not to get too full of yourself... It's very easy for tanks to get this way and I've had to stop myself from doing it numerous times (and I used to be too shy to mark a heroics).

Other people aren't your bitches (unless they choose to be LOL). When I have an OT as geared as me they aren't my "OT", they are my equal.. I don't need to babysit and they sure as hell don't need me telling them what to do. That also means if they taunt a mob, it's theirs till it dies so they have something to do, unless they honestly want to autofollow a mage till we get to a pull I need them for. <--- Which is OK too.. I do it when I need to BRB IRL lol.

As many suggested... Chain pull with them, can prove to be faster then you just taking everything.
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Postby Sober » Fri Sep 19, 2008 9:00 am

If you are running kara with 2 experienced and geared tanks then chain pull away. I'm about to just let the feral druid I ran with for 2 weeks back to soloing cause we can never get a 2nd run for other guildies cause we both get saved on a run that's not necessary. I've solo tanked kara way too many times to remember - and my pally is my alt too. Feral is a nice 2nd tank cause they can always swap into DPS for 1-tank fights but we were always chain pulling stuff (Etherals before Netherspite, etc.) instead of tank, recoup, repeat.
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Postby ARogers » Fri Sep 19, 2008 1:52 pm

I have had this happen a lot in pugs. They think tanking is all that they can do. Even if he dps gear suck, he can throw some on and do some ok dps.

I actually had this happen to me last week in mags with a pally tank that didn't know what he was doing. The Warrior would use his ranged to pull, then then I would judge the mob on my side, and the other pally tnak should've judged the mob on his side. Instead, he just taunted before they got in range of me and the warrior thinking it would taunt just that mob and all 3 were on him. He did it every time. I told him after the first pull how to do it right, but he still did it. I /sit every pull until mags after that.
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Postby Malthorn » Fri Sep 19, 2008 6:31 pm

Don't really know what I can add here, but I like running with one specific warrior. He's a m8 and we have great synergy. We're both on vent and have the times of our lives.

Then again I also like solo tanking the shyte out of kara. But maybe you guys can help me with one bit:

As we all know soloing kara isn't a great feat anymore, but I always have major problems with just one part....... the blue mobs before Curator. Pull them -> mana goes bye bye -> they blink -> taunt on cd -> healer goes down..... EVERY FREAKIN PULL

any suggestions?
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Postby sapientialb » Sat Sep 20, 2008 9:22 am

Hey Mal,

I have the exact same problem every time I do kara. Those 5-6 pulls and the pulls with the magic immune mobs drive me nuts every week.

Hopefully the changes to our taunt will make it a little easier. Usually I loose a healer on every one of those pulls, and while guildies/friends understand and get it, pugs aren't so nice sometimes about.

"Tanks need many stats, including No-blink crotch staring resistance" - Snake-Aes
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Postby Nikachelle » Sat Sep 20, 2008 11:04 am

From my own experience, when I was less geared, I needed to be the OT... then slowly became the MT with an OT. And then became the overpowered MT who needs to get hit as much as possible in order to get things moving smoothly.

If you're at the point where you need an entire room on you in order to keep a decent pace going for mana return then you need to be firm and clear that you are SOLO tanking. Having two tanks takes up a LOT of time because, as it's been said, you need to make sure that each tank feels that they get their "fair share" of tanking. Which means marking EVERYTHING that moves and then splitting up who does what, etc. etc.. And if you're at the point of solo tanking, you're also past the lengthy bullroar that goes hand in hand with dual-tanking Kara. It takes added time to accomodate two tanks. None of which I am prepared to wait for.

I guess it sounds mean when I sign up for a Kara raid and say I'll only go if I'm solo tanking it, but good god, it's too hard doing it the other way.
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