A little unsure on my feelings/thoughts, etc

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A little unsure on my feelings/thoughts, etc

Postby VikrumthePally » Wed Sep 17, 2008 11:57 am

Long post is long.

Let me start my saying I have a pretty good amount of raid xp. All pre BC though. I used to play an alliance rogue. That's it.

Well since I came back to World of Warcraft I have been rocking my tankadin. Haven't really gotten into raiding. Only thing I've done that resembles raiding is Kara (not so much raiding imho) and 2 bosses in ZA.

However each time I have done Kara I have been the MT and solo'd the whole place. We had a bear for Netherspite. But other than that it was me.
So that is what I know.

Well this is where my story begins. Was in heroic MGT last night get a tell from a friend wanting to know if myself, wife, and my best friend would like to come to a Kara raid. They needed healer, dps, tank and that is what the 3 of us are. So we were like sure. Well before we ever went I talked to the RL (my friend that asked us to come) and said I assume you want me to OT yes? Reason I asked this is because they always have a warrior with them and since it was 7 their guild, 3 our, I figured they would want to have their warrior up front.

He says hang on let me check. He's like well if you think you can handle it you can MT. I said well I have MT'd this place 3 times now solo and done very well imho. So yeah if you guys want I'd love to.

So he was like yeah the warrior doesn't mind. So there we were. We head to Kara get on vent etc. So we are doing some pulls otw to Midnight and the warrior says something about fine if you want to tank everything go ahead. On all the pulls I had been consecrating and taunting them to me. I mean they are cake. You don't even need HS for them. So I say yeah that's just the way I've always done it. He's like ok. Well we continue that way right up until the Opera event. The whole time in vent he's like man no rage this sucks, well when I tank, just on and on and on. Not only is he running his mouth the whole time he's taunting mobs off me. To which I just taunt them right back. So finally he's like you don't have to taunt them off of me. And later on he just starts marking targets for me when I have been doing it all night.

(pause the story right here) Is it just me or does it seem that in a group of say 5 mobs. If vI'm AE tanking them and he wants to tank one and taunts it off of me, it seems really hard to hold aggro on the rest of them. Is there any mechanic in that? All I know is that when I do tank all 5 I never lose aggro. But the minute the Warrior gets on mob 2, it seems like 3,4,5 have their aggro "jacked up." ??)

Anyhow so after hearing all his whinning etc etc I finally send him a tell saying Just MT it bro. He's like "oh no i don't mind OT'ing" I say just take it man. He's like OK. He proceeds to pull and on the very next pull (his first of the night) the shaman pulls aggro and dies. Now yes deep down inside I laughed. It was made better when he said all night if you pull aggro I don't taunt and all the dps were like you wouldn't have to taunt anything if you have the threat of the pally. Yeah I was smiling. So yeah he tanked the rest of the night and asked me to tank Prince, Nightbane, couple others. Which I thought was cool of him.

Anyways don't know what I am getting at here. I just kinda got pissy because when he started taunting mobs off me (before I told him to MT rest of the way) it seemed dps started dying on my watch. Where as they weren't dying early on when he was just all out dps'ing and not trying to OT mob X.

You guys who've raided a lot more. What do I need to do to get over this? I'm not this type thinking I am the only one that can ever tank. It's just when A.) The "raid" doesn't need more than one tank B.) when the tank agreed to only OT when it was necessary in this case Spite C.) When the guy isn't a douche all night. The entire raid when he was MT'ing this was him "omg hit me, man so much dodge parry block I can't see anything on my screen, no rage gosh hit me. ALL NIGHT!!! Again if the warrior is good I would love to have him. But him being prot spec and us splitting the trash pulls was just a waste.

Geeze ok rant off. Sorry this is the only place I can come vent on this subject.
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Postby uke » Wed Sep 17, 2008 12:05 pm

Well, I'd admit that if he constantly complained about not having rage all night, it would get a bit old.

However, if you're aoe tanking a 4-5 pull, and the warrior taunts one off to have fun with, why are you compelled to taunt it back? That just seems like being greedy.

My guild usually does ZA with myself (pally) and a warrior as tanks. We actually have a pretty good synergy that involves him taunting off me. I'll grab a pack of 4-5 mobs, and the warrior will taunt one off of me at a time until they're all dead. If the mob I'm focused on gets taunted off by the warrior, I'll just shift to the other 2-3 mobs still pounding on me. Warrior gets his rage from tanking his targets, and I keep my mana up via SA with mobs beating on me, and it makes for very smooth pulls.

In short, purposely taunting away from a warrior when you already have 2+ other mobs on you just seems greedy, in my honest opinion. Let him tank his one mob at a time while you hold the rest.
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Postby honorshammer » Wed Sep 17, 2008 12:06 pm

He's a Warrior, and needs Rage like we need mana. It shouldn't be a big deal for him to taunt one mob off your pack to give him a little Rage to DPS.
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Postby Amirya » Wed Sep 17, 2008 12:11 pm

Mark one or two for him to play with.

Then let him play with them.
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Postby Belloc » Wed Sep 17, 2008 12:52 pm

I know the feeling that you had last night. Personally, I don't want to come to Karazhan unless I'm solo-tanking. This isn't out of selfishness, it's because I know that the run goes faster when I'm the only tank. Paladins tend to tank Karazhan best when they have all of the mobs on them -- it keeps their mana up, vastly reducing downtime (drinking).

Adding an extra tank-specced player just slows things down due to their low dps and... desire to tank stuff. No one wants to feel like they don't even need to be there. If a Karazhan group has a MT, I won't be coming on my Paladin. The reason is exactly as I mentioned above -- I don't want to feel like I'm not really needed there.

The warrior would've been better off speccing fury, but that's probably not what he wanted. The best thing to do in situations like that is to give the warrior something to tank. Your run will be slowed down, but it's honestly the right thing to do.

So, as was suggested, give the warrior a marked target and make sure his target is the last to be killed. He'll stay busy and you won't have a complaining warrior taunting mobs off of you. Also, have him initiate small pulls (especially single mob pulls) while you are drinking.
Last edited by Belloc on Wed Sep 17, 2008 12:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Thesupreme » Wed Sep 17, 2008 12:54 pm

Do it like I do, make your best friend a fury warrior, and then he can be your bitch on pulls that you could want on OT for. Thinking Ushers before Opera for example.
Superman tanks all!

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Postby VikrumthePally » Wed Sep 17, 2008 1:04 pm

Belloc and Thesupreme hit the nail on the head.

@Thesupreme
I think that is why I was kind of upset. I do have a fury warrior that is down to do that.

But again I made it clear before hand "was I mt'ing and was the war DPS?"
So that is just what I was given.

Thanks for the input guys.
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Postby daemonym » Wed Sep 17, 2008 1:14 pm

Belloc wrote:Adding an extra tank-specced player just slows things down due to their low dps and... desire to tank stuff. No one wants to feel like they don't even need to be there. If a Karazhan group has a MT, I won't be coming on my Paladin. The reason is exactly as I mentioned above -- I don't want to feel like I'm not really needed there.


I couldn't agree more with this. I ran as OT twice into kara on my pally and was bored to tears. what am i doing here? oh picking up non elites so the mages and aoe them down. oh it's maiden? pretend that you're a healer. prince? pretend that you're a healer. and so forth. I gto a few drops from that run, boots of elusion and maiden's gloves, but i still feel that i ninja'd them (even though the other tank didn't need them) because i really didn't do anythign to EARN them. I'm the kind of tank that doesn't want leet drops handed out unless i'm actively doing something to get them.

as fro the warrior you're having issues with, just let them taunt and be happy with it, I get ti a lot in 5mans even where a boomkin thinks they cna tank just by going into bear form. i let them taunt and let them die. atleast your OT was SPECCED for the job ya know. over reacting? a little. justified? quite.
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Postby VikrumthePally » Wed Sep 17, 2008 2:06 pm

daemonym wrote:
Belloc wrote:Adding an extra tank-specced player just slows things down due to their low dps and... desire to tank stuff. No one wants to feel like they don't even need to be there. If a Karazhan group has a MT, I won't be coming on my Paladin. The reason is exactly as I mentioned above -- I don't want to feel like I'm not really needed there.


I couldn't agree more with this. I ran as OT twice into kara on my pally and was bored to tears. what am i doing here? oh picking up non elites so the mages and aoe them down. oh it's maiden? pretend that you're a healer. prince? pretend that you're a healer. and so forth. I gto a few drops from that run, boots of elusion and maiden's gloves, but i still feel that i ninja'd them (even though the other tank didn't need them) because i really didn't do anythign to EARN them. I'm the kind of tank that doesn't want leet drops handed out unless i'm actively doing something to get them.

as fro the warrior you're having issues with, just let them taunt and be happy with it, I get ti a lot in 5mans even where a boomkin thinks they cna tank just by going into bear form. i let them taunt and let them die. atleast your OT was SPECCED for the job ya know. over reacting? a little. justified? quite.


Kinda sorta on the same page with you. You saying you were "bored to tears" is exactly how the warrior felt last night but again I asked before hand what the other tank would be doing.

As far as healing or dps'ing in progression content in a 99% guild only run I'll do whatever it takes to get a win as long as there is someone there better suited to tank in my stead. But in a Kara run where I can get few upgrades or we are vastly over geared I won't be doing this. I am a tank. If I wanted to heal I'd roll a priest, dps, I'd roll a lock.
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Postby Kelaan » Wed Sep 17, 2008 2:47 pm

VikrumthePally wrote:Kinda sorta on the same page with you. You saying you were "bored to tears" is exactly how the warrior felt last night but again I asked before hand what the other tank would be doing.


You as "OT" is a bit of a waste, for you. The warrior not tanking anything is similarly less fun, AND a waste. I think the nice thing to do would have been to whisper him (when he was being disruptive) and say, "how about we keep you tanking 1-2 of the last targets to die, and all single pulls, so that you have rage and neither of us are bored?"

Conversely, you could do something like alternate who tanks various pulls. Large AOE, sure you tank it ... but for things that either are suited for, trade off. It lets you drink while everyone else is doing stuff. You'd likely have been happier, and he probably would have too.

Have fun next time.
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Postby VikrumthePally » Wed Sep 17, 2008 2:50 pm

Kelaan wrote:
VikrumthePally wrote:Kinda sorta on the same page with you. You saying you were "bored to tears" is exactly how the warrior felt last night but again I asked before hand what the other tank would be doing.


You as "OT" is a bit of a waste, for you. The warrior not tanking anything is similarly less fun, AND a waste. I think the nice thing to do would have been to whisper him (when he was being disruptive) and say, "how about we keep you tanking 1-2 of the last targets to die, and all single pulls, so that you have rage and neither of us are bored?"

Conversely, you could do something like alternate who tanks various pulls. Large AOE, sure you tank it ... but for things that either are suited for, trade off. It lets you drink while everyone else is doing stuff. You'd likely have been happier, and he probably would have too.

Have fun next time.


Great post. Thanks a lot!
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Postby rodos » Wed Sep 17, 2008 5:42 pm

I pretty much ran OT through my entire Kara career (weekly guild "progression" runs).

The advantages were that the MT was a bear, and there were no pally healers, so I got all the plate drops (all the shields and healing mail too, until our warlock decided to bring his shaman instead). I also got to play around with my spec, heal stuff (I actually got a kick out of FoL spam, and always being the last one standing on our weeks of failed Aran attempts), and be generally useful (blessing, BoPing, HoJing, etc.)

The important thing was that even when we out-geared the place, knew all the fights backwards and were just farming badges, we split the pulls to keep the interest level up. The 5-pulls on the way to Attumen? OT a couple. Attumen & Midnight? Split 'em up, why not. Pairs of guards in Moroes' room? Split 'em again Ushers? 2-tank them.

At the end of the day, it's about fun. You don't need to min-max in Kara these days. If someone wants to tank something, why not? If the warlock wants to push his new crit-happy destro build to the point where he gets pasted to a wall, /laugh at him, res and move on.
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Postby masterpoobaa » Wed Sep 17, 2008 6:34 pm

With our guild the OT used to taunt off me all the time... but this was required as i was weak n weedy.
Now they dont both and the offtank (usually a drood) just stays in catform.
I can quite comfortably tank 4-5 of those spectres that phase in and out. good fun.

Think im a pretty relaxed thank. Even when we did have issues with a now-ex guidie deliberately taunting i didnt make a fuss. just keep hittin away and judge wisdom.
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Postby jahve » Wed Sep 17, 2008 10:10 pm

I guess it has been stated here already but warriors need get hit to get rage, let them have that mob for a while. When rage is up and their health is down taunt em back.

In our guild runs sometimes even in Hyjal, warrior or even retri paladins, to get rage/mana they taunt something or use other means to get agro of one mob.

It is boring run if you dont have any mana or rage for most of the time.
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Postby majiben » Wed Sep 17, 2008 10:33 pm

When I first was training my guild's warrior's and druids on how to work with me in kara I told them that I didn't mind if they taunted off me but never to taunt my target or the last mob on me. The run really isn't slowed down much by having me tank x-1 mobs and the warrior/druid getting his 1 when we all can put out decent tps.
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