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Consecration

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Postby Strom » Wed Jul 16, 2008 11:03 am

Snake-Aes wrote:To keep it simply, you can also make improved righteous fury grant spell damage equal to 85/170/250% of your equipped weapon's DPS, a bit like strom said.


True but Consectrated Weapons just sounds hella cool!

Also, to the poster above who said we could switch around weapons:

I was thinking more in terms of a buff like RF, so it would change depending on what was equipped.
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Postby Khayne » Wed Jul 16, 2008 11:09 am

Aertho wrote:I think the #1 reason this isn't considered an option is because it's basically a Shaman weapon imbue. The second aspect of the idea, the depositing of a debuff... well, that's Seal of the Crusader, ain't it?


Yeah, i mean damn if they´d give us some watered down shammy spell with less charges than the original, would be lame.

Shame that only new spell we know about is that 1 new and original heal that goes off when the target is hit.
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Postby agamemnoch » Wed Jul 16, 2008 2:05 pm

How about something like "Avenging Wrath" for more threat, even AoE but a smaller area though passive/reactive if you want or active if you want to use it all up for a big debuff effect (out thunderclap, if you will).

You cast "Divine Power" and it puts a bar up. You can then judge it like a seal but instead of a fixed amount of damage, it spits out the rest of what it has * Your spell dmg multiplier. However, it arcs to nearby targets like chain heal or chain lightning. Judging it causes "Damnation" resulting in 20% longer cast time for 5 seconds, interrupts current cast (chance to fail) and slows melee DPS by .015% for every 1 point of spell power for 8 seconds.

Give it a 20 second cool down and you are set.

Otherwise, when you get hit, it arcs smaller amounts that arc towards your main target and get diminishing amounts to "jumped" targets until the bar is emptied (not a buff that disappears like a seal).

It makes it like a combination of the DMC:V, Thorns, Earth shield, holy shield and thunderclap, but unique enough to not piss off every other class, and not IMBA or anything.
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Postby Aertho » Wed Jul 16, 2008 2:15 pm

"Divine Power"


Certainly interesting, but I'm not sure it would effectively solve any perceived problems in Paladin tanking. In fact, I'd wager your idea is unnecessarily complicated.

Rather than continue submitting solutions to a somewhat not-exactly-broken situation, what are the problems associated with Paladins that you'd like to brainstorm answers? I know many players suggest a desire for a "threat dump" but even that's arguably unnecessary. Let's set our cards on the table and nail down in no uncertain terms what we need "fixed".
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Postby agamemnoch » Wed Jul 16, 2008 2:23 pm

Aertho wrote:
"Divine Power"


Certainly interesting, but I'm not sure it would effectively solve any perceived problems in Paladin tanking. In fact, I'd wager your idea is unnecessarily complicated.

Rather than continue submitting solutions to a somewhat not-exactly-broken situation, what are the problems associated with Paladins that you'd like to brainstorm answers? I know many players suggest a desire for a "threat dump" but even that's arguably unnecessary. Let's set our cards on the table and nail down in no uncertain terms what we need "fixed".


You don't think that would fix things?

It would fix a LOT of things, making it an important 51 prot talent.

Here's a list:

Interrupt, we don't have one. This gives one.
Speed/dmg debuff for when warriors are not available (Paladin answer to thunderclap
Single/small multiple target threat generator (Ret aura on steroids) if it is reflective damage based on damage taken instead of a fixed 20 holy per hit/block.
Smaller AoE than consecrate that would not share a cool down for when you do not want to bring more mobs into the fray
Gives us another button to push and more that we can do (what if it were NOT a lvl 51 talent, Ret would love to have interrupts and debuff abilities)
It could change what we bring to a raid or a group in general w/o people thinking we just roll our faces on the consecrate mapped keyboard.

Hell, they could make it trainable and have it do different things based upon which 51 talent we choose. Holy does healing like a chain heal or Prayer of mending. Ret has it do a lower aggro chain smite or even "misdirect" the aggro to the tank, etc, but can still debuff targets.

If it were based on "Rank = how much reflective dmg it can send" it would work very well
For example Rank one has "X amount of reflection, Rank 2 is 1.5X"
Also, it would be unique enough to not seem like it was a direct take on any one other classes talents.

All in 1 spell
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Postby Kelaan » Wed Jul 16, 2008 2:53 pm

Aertho wrote:Holy Sword and Board - “When your Consecrate and Vengeance abilities deal damage they have a 2/4/6/8/10% chance of refreshing the cooldown of your Holy Shock ability and reducing its cost by 100% for 5 sec.”


I'd hit it. :) A baselined Holy Shock, even WITHOUT that, would be excellent. It's like an exorcism that you can use on anyone. We don't really need the initial burst threat ALL that much, but it would let us get better threat on just a few, and also help us (via the cheaper cost ;)) do OT threat as well, if we needed to. (The mana cost may be prohibitive, though.)

Still, Holy shock being baseline? awesome. The only trouble is, you'd then have Ret paladins who could follow up a SoCommand proc with crusader strike and then holy shock. ;) Still, it's not like they're likely to have lots of spelldamage (or int?) in DPS warrior plate, so it might not be so bad.

Pros:
- A mana->threat dump that we can use basically every other consecrate
- burst threat
- emergency heal even if you're tanking ;) (Seriously -- 15 second cooldown half a healthstone? Or use it on someone else? Nice.)
- Lets you put initial burst threat on TWO targets (JoR on one, Shock another), and then put Wisdom or something up if you're outgearing content.

Cons:
- Potential burst-damage abuse
- High mana cost.
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Postby Aertho » Wed Jul 16, 2008 3:18 pm

Yeah, only it's a straight rip from the Warrior talents, so it's doubtful we'd get something as nice. Still, the simplicity of its proc and multiple uses - Free Shocks for burst threat or spot healing - is more than just desirable.

And as for the Divine Power slam, I just think adding more bars and timers to the Paladin interface is a recipe for disaster. Interrupts and Debuffs and Moar AOE Threat notwithstanding, I'm not convinced or even clear that such things are necessary to tanking, healing or Retributing. And putting so many useful tricks into a deep Protection talent is very unfair and counterintuitive.
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Postby Sharlos » Wed Jul 16, 2008 7:02 pm

I think we need a melee attack added. One that cn miss and be parried/dodged. That way our threat scales better with +hit cause if we're using warrior gear I don't want al that hit to go to waste.



On a side note something that would be awesome would be that all our spells scale with attack power instead of spell damage (including our heal spells) similar to how DK's spells scale with attack power. That way our different specs wouldn't need such wildly different gear sets and it would be easier for new abilities we get to be useful for all specs.
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Postby rodos » Wed Jul 16, 2008 7:47 pm

Agamemnoch wrote:You cast "Divine Power" and it puts a bar up. You can then judge it like a seal but instead of a fixed amount of damage, it spits out the rest of what it has * Your spell dmg multiplier.

I think this functionality could just be loaded onto Holy Shield.

Shield Smite - Unleashes the power of all your active Holy Shield charges causing x holy damage per charge and interrupting spellcasting. The cooldown of your Holy Shield spell is reset when using this ability.
10 second cooldown

This would need to be off the GCD so you could re-cast HS immediately. The 10s cooldown means you can't spam it, or use it to ninja extra HS charges on AoE fights.
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Postby Arcand » Wed Jul 16, 2008 11:19 pm

rodos wrote:10 second cooldown


This is what I don't want more of. Already we spend a fair bit of time with exactly nothing to do because we're waiting for our abilities to come off cooldown, which means an aggro mishap at the right moment can catch us totally unable to react. Judgement, Consecration, Righteous Defense, Exorcism...

...I want to see an ability that's spammable. Always up unless I'm flat out of mana. Make it inefficient so it's usually foolish to spam it; that's fine - but something to make me feel like I'm doing more than playing Tapper with my cooldowns.
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Postby Mouse » Thu Jul 17, 2008 5:44 am

I really like consecrate. I can see exactly which mobs are getting aggro from me, I can do it without targetting any enemies, and breaking cc isnt a big deal, we just chain sheep for a few seconds.
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Postby dmok » Thu Jul 17, 2008 9:19 am

rodos wrote:Shield Smite - Unleashes the power of all your active Holy Shield charges causing x holy damage per charge and interrupting spellcasting. The cooldown of your Holy Shield spell is reset when using this ability.
10 second cooldown

This seems like a pretty solid idea, except maybe on a 15s CD or something so you really have to "save" it for the important spells and can't just outright spam it for large amounts of threat
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Postby Wyleai » Thu Jul 17, 2008 9:45 am

The AoE nature of consecrate has to be the driving reason why so many people pick the class to begin with as a tanking option. AoE tanking.

What the original post seems to want is a shaman that can tank. So for that', I'd suggest just beefing up the shaman's survivability a bit in one of the specs...
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