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Postby Worldie » Fri Jun 27, 2008 9:30 am

moduspwnens wrote:
Worldie wrote:
moduspwnens wrote: What advice can you give Worldie or I, who have been turned down for Brutallus, about how we can convince our guilds that we deserve a raid spot?

My situation is slightly different, i'm our guild Main tank, i can tank Brutallus if i want, and i'm our best geared tank. Just, our DPS can't live without JoW, and the IQ of our holy paladins isnt high enough to keep one judgement up seembs.


Well sure, but why aren't you? If you're the main tank, and 100% viable, shouldn't everyone agree you should be doing it?

They agree, but as well they agree that if one of the 3 tanks should go dps i'm the best at it.

It's the first time i wish ret sucked :\
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halabar wrote:Noo.. you don't realize the problem. Worldie was to negative guild breaking energy like Bolvar is to the Scourge. If Worldie is removed, than someone must pick up that mantle, otherwise that negative guild breaking energy will run rampant, destroying all the servers.
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Postby moduspwnens » Fri Jun 27, 2008 9:41 am

Worldie wrote:They agree, but as well they agree that if one of the 3 tanks should go dps i'm the best at it.

It's the first time i wish ret sucked :\


: | Even you admitted just a few posts back that this seemed odd.

Worldie wrote:Ironically, i had some discussion today with some of our officers, i was complaining cause they don't let me tank Brutallus even if i'm our best geared tank, and the answer i got was "it's simply because as DPS you give us more than our warrior or druids, rather than what you give tanking if one of them goes DPS"
I found that quite ironic, preferring a low dps ret paladin to the "well established" fury warrior or feral druid DPS.


EDIT: Fixed wording.

EDIT: You said ironic. Nevermind then. I think my point still stands though.
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Postby Splug » Fri Jun 27, 2008 11:06 am

I honestly prefer the "these are our problems, I hope they get fixed" threads over the "I want a tallent that does this:" threads. The former are practical, and can allow for scrutiny, discussion, and a benefit/drawback analysis. The later allow me to state that I too want a pony. Though the "and if it doesn't get fixed I'm out of here qq" tagline at the end is a little overkill. Some time I should put together a list of warrior grievances - some things that are easily taken for granted are actually fairly obnoxious when you have to make do without.

That said - my one major beef with the current "end game" paladin setup is definitely the itemization. Blizzard has put together a fairly close contrast between the tanking classes, and once player bias is stripped away they become largely interchangable when ignoring equipment. However, the +11.6% edge from paladin stam tallents vs warrior stam tallents does not quite compensate for ~15-20% of itemization points being wasted on INT - which while a necesary stat in small quantities, is an extra dependancy with no major return to primary goals. Enhance shaman suffer from the same plight. While the additional stat is not as bad as it looks due to the exponential cost of stats on a single item, it still ends up putting paladins a few itemization points in the hole, and is a tuning point I'd hope is addressed.

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Postby Arcand » Fri Jun 27, 2008 11:13 am

The more permeable our bubble becomes, the more compensatory goodies we are (hopefully) entitled to. Nerf it into the ground, I say. :D
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Postby Aertho » Fri Jun 27, 2008 11:21 am

Agreed Splug. I eagerly anticipate news of WotLK changes, and while I agree that itemization points creates an enormous problem for Paladins, I kind of hope they don't get rid of Intellect and Spellpower on our plate. Personal preference of course, but I like this point of uniqueness that we as casters in plate have in what we wear to battle.

Chances are Righteous Fury will convert Strength into Spellpower, and simplify matters entirely —Except when making room in our bags for ALL THE GEAR we'll need. Nothing new, of course.

I do wonder about our ability to solo and quest with very little Intellect, and where we'll find Block Stats in a parry-focussed Northrend.
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Postby Dragonzbane » Fri Jun 27, 2008 11:28 am

Whitewolf wrote:You actually probably will take less damage then the Druid.
W/ Shaman armor buff, and Block value - *Shrugs*.


Well, right now the warrior takes more damage than the druid, so everyone assumes that I will, in relation, also take more damage.

If you can provide proof in the form of WWS I'd love to see them.
If not I guess I'll have to wait until the guild feels it's "farm" enough to "risk" me tanking it.


Whitewolf wrote:Others can debuff the boss for you.


This is a point of contention that I am going to start bringing up.
We have an Arms warrior who is reluctant to put up TC for Brut because of the reduction in his DPS, he points to the enrage timer as his justification.


Whitewolf wrote:And, if you COULD do all those things - you wouldn't BE a Paladin.


That is very short sighted and unimaginative.

Blizzard has so far figured out ways to:
- increase our threat
- decrease damage input
- give us a low health ability
- give us a way to block/remove crushing blows
- increase our health

and all the while maintaining the flavor of our class.
If they can do that I'm sure they could figure out a way to address our other issues.


Whitewolf wrote:Honestly - if we had the extra +4% dmg mitigation, last stand, a shield wall and a spell interrupt - why would we use Warriors at all?


To be snide, we would still use warriors to Spell Reflect.


Honestly?

No one, me especially wants them to "cut and paste" the warrior prot tree to our prot tree.

Spefically, I don't want "+4% dmg mitigation, last stand, a shield wall and a spell interrupt".

We don't need any type of spell interrupt.
We don't need spell reflect.
We don't need another 4% DR.

However, we do need another non-LoH emergency ability.

If we are going to be sub-par compared to warriors in Mitigation (& single target threat in some stages) we need to better than them in something that has to do with "Main Tanking".
Last edited by Dragonzbane on Fri Jun 27, 2008 12:10 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Postby Dragonzbane » Fri Jun 27, 2008 11:50 am

Lore wrote:A few things.

#1: Paladin tanking is 100% fine currently. Buffs are always welcome, but unnecessary so long as your guild understands how to work with a Paladin tank; or rather, that you're able to explain everything. We're still something of an anomaly to most other players, so an intricate knowledge of your class is basically a requirement or you risk having someone draw incorrect conclusions.


I respectfully disagree.
We are not 100% fine.

Holy Shield overlap?
As mentioned above, server lag should not effect our ability to tank.

Emergency Skills?
Not comment necessery, LoH doesn't cut it.
(Imp LoH wouldn't be bad if it was in our tree and we could spec for it)

At the very minimum those two issues need to be addressed.

Mana-burn?
Silence?
Fear?
Spell Attacks?
I'm willing to chalk ALL of those up to "class flavor" and they really are not as much of an issue as they used to be.

So IMO we are close but not there yet.


What about all of those leaks Lore?
You don't think the class would have been better off with some, not all of those changes?


The proof is in the pudding.
We share "World First" rankings with Warlocks and Mages.


Lore wrote:#2: I generate more threat than any of our other tanks in Sunwell purely by virtue of Spiritual Attunement. For example, from our latest WWS parse, Brutallus did about 4500 damage per second (on average) with just his melee swings. Assuming I'm being topped off, I'm gaining mana at a rate of 4500 x 0.11 = 495. That's 495 x 0.5 x 1.9 = 470 threat per second just for standing there and looking pretty (as long as I keep my mana pool from filling).


I'm going to have to take your word for it.
Until I tank Brut I won't know for sure.
Unless you feel like linking some WWS.


Lore wrote:#3: The 4% difference between Imp RF and Defensive Stance is close to meaningless. The margin in which that 4% means life or death for a tank is VERY small, and in the event that numbers line up perfectly to where 4% makes the difference... Ardent Defender is most likely active, and the Paladin is actually taking significantly less damage.


I completely agree.

Though I still take issue with AD not firing during Brut.
I brought this up at the begin of the Brut thread back when Sunwell just came out.

If MH hits and would put you into AD range why doesn't AD effect the OH hit?

Don't tell me that they happen at the same time.
If they both are seperate hits (and we know that they are) then AD should trigger.
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Postby Lore » Fri Jun 27, 2008 12:07 pm

You list off our weaknesses but give no reasoning as to why they make us bad tanks.

Holy Shield overlap sucks but isn't a game-breaking issue, especially since very few endgame raid bosses actually crush anymore.

Lack of emergency survival skills I'm okay with. We don't have to compare 1:1 with Warriors in every way, and on a fair portion of fights, Avenging Wrath is significantly more helpful than Shield Wall or Last Stand anyway.

Mana burn and silence are annoying, but again, we don't have to be the best tank for every encounter to be viable endgame tanks.

Fear is a non-issue since the 2.3 changes (Fear no longer dropping aggro + fear ward given to every priest), yeah we're a little more reliant on group composition to have it, but it's usually not hard to work 4 priests into your raid if needed. I know many Warriors who prefer having their priests use a fear ward rotation over breaking the fear themselves, purely so they don't have to worry about it.

Spell Attacks, we've still got 10% spell damage reduction over Druids, and there are very few fights where it's an issue (or there isn't some other reason to have us there anyway).

We don't have to meet or beat warriors in every way so long as encounter design compensates for it. M'uru is a good example. You really want a Warrior on the Void Sentinels to spell reflect the Void Blast, but that's fine - we bring 2 prot paladins to M'uru purely because we're so good at controlling everything else in phase 1. If we had 3 geared prot pallies we'd bring 3.

As I mentioned initially, buffs are always welcome. I think Blizzard could afford to throw a little extra love our way without making us overpowered, or making Warrior, Druid, or Death Knight tanks undesireable. I just also don't think it's absolutely necessary.
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Postby Lore » Fri Jun 27, 2008 12:16 pm

Brutallus WWS: http://wowwebstats.com/clsqufwfgsd6q

It's throwing an error for some reason though, so here's a different parse from SK-Gaming: http://wowwebstats.com/1aixkzoeg2j3i?s=5234-5500&a=63

Brutallus performed 1,118,343 melee damage and 39,492 stomp damage for a total of 1,157,835 damage over 4'27" (267 seconds). I'm not including Slash because that affects more people than just the tank, so that total will be a little lower than the amount the tank actually took. 1156835 / 267 = 4336 damage per second.

Paladins with 2-piece T6 get 11% mana back from heals. Each point of mana is worth 0.5 points of threat initially, but as Spiritual Attunement is a Holy ability, it benefits from Righteous Fury's 1.9x modifier. So the amount of threat gained is 0.11 x 0.5 x 1.9 = 0.1045, or 10.45% of your incoming DPS.

4336 x 0.1045 = 453.112 Spiritual Attunement TPS. Add the Paladin's own threat on top of that (which is high as well since all or close to all of your Holy Shield charges get used each CD), and you have a ton of threat output.
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Postby Dragonzbane » Fri Jun 27, 2008 12:32 pm

Lore wrote:You list off our weaknesses but give no reasoning as to why they make us bad tanks.


I've done that many times over elsewhere.

The only reason that I really care about it that those things are used as arguments against many of us.


Lore wrote:Holy Shield overlap sucks but isn't a game-breaking issue, especially since very few endgame raid bosses actually crush anymore.


Anymore.
Still effects us on Twins though.

I am currently trying to position myself as one of the tanks on the Twins.
I'm now fighting against the guilds new found love for our Druid tank because of Brutallis though with the twins it shouldn't be an issue.


Lore wrote:Lack of emergency survival skills I'm okay with. We don't have to compare 1:1 with Warriors in every way, and on a fair portion of fights, Avenging Wrath is significantly more helpful than Shield Wall or Last Stand anyway.


That's your opinion.
We wiped on Kalec a couple of times this week mainly because people had their heads up their asses but probably 1 or 2 attempts might have been kills if I was able to "Shield Wall".

Again, I don't want shield wall and would feel cheated if they gave it to us.
But kill vs wipe is hard to argue with.

AW?
I can't see that being the difference between a kill vs wipe, sorry.


Lore wrote:Mana burn and silence are annoying, but again, we don't have to be the best tank for every encounter to be viable endgame tanks.

Fear...

Spell Attacks...


I already conceded those to "class flavor" so no big deal.

The thing is this:
Warriors don't have any similiar problems to deal with.

Disarm?
No

Rage Burn?
One phase of one boss

Physical Immunity?
During IC when BoP is up.


Lore wrote:We don't have to meet or beat warriors in every way so long as encounter design compensates for it. M'uru is a good example. You really want a Warrior on the Void Sentinels to spell reflect the Void Blast, but that's fine - we bring 2 prot paladins to M'uru purely because we're so good at controlling everything else in phase 1. If we had 3 geared prot pallies we'd bring 3.


I don't think I'll have trouble getting into Mu'ru.
I might have trouble convincing them to put me on anything other than Void Spawns.


Lore wrote:As I mentioned initially, buffs are always welcome. I think Blizzard could afford to throw a little extra love our way without making us overpowered, or making Warrior, Druid, or Death Knight tanks undesireable. I just also don't think it's absolutely necessary.


I don't think anyone here wants us to be overpowered.
We all know what happened to Druids, though they seem to have turned out okay afterall.

We will see what happens.
Last edited by Dragonzbane on Fri Jun 27, 2008 12:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby moduspwnens » Fri Jun 27, 2008 12:39 pm

That is assuming that the Paladin is able to burn through a ridiculous amount of mana though, right? It seems as if once a boss is hitting hard enough to give you a full mana bar virtually the whole time, the threat from it would plateau.

Assuming 4300 DPS, you're receiving 4300 HPS, and receiving (4300x0.11) 473 mana per second, or 2365 mp5.

Seal of Righteousness is 280 mana, Holy Shield is 280 mana, Judgement is 5% of base mana, Consecration is 660 mana, and Exorcism is 340 mana. Assuming Judgement is 200 (probably a little high), perfect latency, and all spells are hit on cooldown:

Holy Shield: 28 mana/sec (10 seconds)
Judgement: 25 mana/sec (8 seconds)
Consecration: 82.5 mana/sec (8 seconds)
Seal of Righteousness: 35 mana/sec (8 seconds)
Exorcism: 22.6 mana/sec (15 seconds)

You are (in a best case scenario) using 193.1 mana/sec, and therefore won't be getting 473 mana/sec through Spiritual Attunement. My estimate for Judgement's cost is a little high, and since you aren't likely to be hitting things on exact cooldowns, so I'd say you're shooting at more around 120-140 actual mana/sec from Spritual Attunement.

EDIT: Used wrong acronym.
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Postby Sabindeus » Fri Jun 27, 2008 12:49 pm

moduspwnens wrote:That is assuming that the Paladin is able to burn through a ridiculous amount of mana though, right? It seems as if once a boss is hitting hard enough to give you a full mana bar virtually the whole time, the threat from it would plateau.

Assuming 4300 DPS, you're receiving 4300 HPS, and receiving (4300x0.11) 473 mana per second, or 2365 mp5.

Seal of Righteousness is 280 mana, Holy Shield is 280 mana, Judgement is 5% of base mana, Consecration is 660 mana, and Exorcism is 340 mana. Assuming Judgement is 200 (probably a little high), perfect latency, and all spells are hit on cooldown:

Holy Shield: 28 mana/sec (10 seconds)
Judgement: 25 mana/sec (8 seconds)
Consecration: 82.5 mana/sec (8 seconds)
Seal of Righteousness: 35 mana/sec (8 seconds)
Exorcism: 22.6 mana/sec (15 seconds)

You are (in a best case scenario) using 193.1 mana/sec, and therefore won't be getting 473 mana/sec through Spiritual Attunement. My estimate for Judgement's cost is a little high, and since you aren't likely to be hitting things on exact cooldowns, so I'd say you're shooting at more around 120-140 actual mana/sec from Spritual Attunement.

EDIT: Used wrong acronym.


Righteous Fury spam.
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Postby moduspwnens » Fri Jun 27, 2008 12:50 pm

Sabindeus wrote:Righteous Fury spam.


Yeah, I suppose you could probably do that if you have the GCDs.
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Postby Sabindeus » Fri Jun 27, 2008 12:57 pm

moduspwnens wrote:
Sabindeus wrote:Righteous Fury spam.


Yeah, I suppose you could probably do that if you have the GCDs.


Well it's not like Paladins spend all of their GCDs on something like Warriors do.
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Postby Splug » Fri Jun 27, 2008 2:17 pm

Dragonzbane wrote:
Lore wrote:Mana burn and silence are annoying, but again, we don't have to be the best tank for every encounter to be viable endgame tanks.

Fear...

Spell Attacks...


I already conceded those to "class flavor" so no big deal.

The thing is this:
Warriors don't have any similiar problems to deal with.

Disarm?
No

Rage Burn?
One phase of one boss

Physical Immunity?
During IC when BoP is up.
It won't show up on grid, but "out of range" is the debuff warriors struggle against most often.

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