Relationships

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Re: Relationships

Postby Rhiannon » Tue Aug 20, 2013 2:47 pm

I don't think my posts on the profanity topic were made in an offensive or condescending manner, but judging from a couple of the responses offense was taken. That wasn't my intent, so I apologise. I was attempting to explain my point of view as uninflammatorily (doubt that's a word) as possible, as when it comes to matters of linguistics I believe personal context and interpretation plays a huge part.
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Re: Relationships

Postby Fivelives » Tue Aug 20, 2013 5:35 pm

Sabindeus wrote:
Fivelives wrote:Channel the energy into something positive, maybe take up a sport or start putting in the effort to get a promotion at work. Go back to school, learn a new skill or language. There are a million different ways to vent that don't involve calling your ex an "ungrateful cunt" (even if she is. Particularly if she is).


Tangent time!

I've never understood the whole "channel anger into something positive/constructive" thing. Like, I've never once been able to do anything constructive unless I'm calm. When I'm angry the only things I can do are destructive, like punching something or someone. How does one accomplish this?


Time for practical advice:

The way you do this is by fixing the thing that made you angry in the first place. If someone says or does something to you that makes you angry, there is a core of truth in what they said or did. When you get angry, that means you've admitted that someone was right about what they said/did to you.

Say for instance, you're struggling to lose 20 pounds. Someone calls you fat, and this angers you. Take that anger to the gym. Or maybe you were a mediocre student and someone calls you stupid. Take that anger and use it as a "whip" to keep you on track while studying a new subject. Perhaps someone tells you that you'll never amount to anything - again, this angers you. Use that anger as fuel to get a promotion at work. It works on compound issues just as well as on simple issues, but first you have to examine it to see what simple issues comprise the compound issue. Or put more simply, break down the mountain one rock at a time.

I'm not saying you should sit down when you're angry and try to make beadwork necklaces or whatever other bullshit people say you should do with it. Use it for practical purposes that will show results. That's the thing about anger; it tends to focus our attention on itself. It can, left unchecked, feed itself until it consumes everything - or it can be purposefully aimed for good purposes and let out a little bit at a time. See, the more you work on fixing whatever it is that made you angry in the first place, the less that thing can control you in the future.

So lose the weight, get the degree, get the promotion, get whatever use you can out of it. Then one day you wake up and realize - you're not angry anymore. Because there has been a measurable change in your life and the root cause of the anger (that core of truth behind every insult that "stings") no longer applies to you.

As far as the language debate is concerned, it's the thought behind the word that counts. Calling someone a cunt is essentially telling them that they are not a person, but rather a vehicle for their reproductive purposes. It dehumanizes them. But flip that around - personally, I use terms like that as pet names rather than insults and I don't care if others use them. Why? Because it will always backfire when you insult someone using "Those Words" and instead of insulting the person you were aiming the jab at, you're just proving that you yourself are an ass.

I also don't believe that censoring words does any good. Again, it boils down to meaning - substituting the word "fork" for "fuck", for instance, just turns the word fork into a "dirty word".
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Re: Relationships

Postby Arnock » Tue Aug 20, 2013 8:20 pm

Lieris wrote:Thank you for mansplaining to me...



I'm not entirely familiar with that term, would you mind explaining it?
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Re: Relationships

Postby Koatanga » Tue Aug 20, 2013 9:13 pm

I believe that the term "pussy" is not so much a derogatory term toward women as it is a reference to an emasculated male. It's a reefrence to the equation of penis size with prowess/bravery such that lacking prowess or bravery is equated with lacking a penis. So calling a man a "pussy" doesn't have anything to do with women lacking anything - it's entirely about the man's lack and has nothing to do with any slight toward women. A woman can also be called a "pussy", again referring to an emasculated male.

Which is why I am a bit bemused that another term for the exact same anatomical part has an entirely different meaning and is in fact quite sexist.
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Re: Relationships

Postby KysenMurrin » Wed Aug 21, 2013 12:29 am

Slightly odd reasoning there. If "pussy" is insulting to a man then that's through the assumption that being a woman is an inherently bad thing, which is indeed sexist and insulting to women.

(Doesn't mean you can't still use these words. Context is key.)
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Re: Relationships

Postby Nooska » Wed Aug 21, 2013 1:31 am

Kysen: actually, its not necessarily on an assumption that being a woman is a bad thing, its is more along the assumpton of female genetalia being opposite to male genetalie, and the general (wester, I'd better add) assumption that the size of the males genitalia is a direct measure of how manly he is (and that is not sexist, a man striving to be manly is not a bad thing, nor is a woman striving to womanly - that is the default for socieital standards - what "being manly" or "being womanly" entails may be different based on cultural context).
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Re: Relationships

Postby lythac » Wed Aug 21, 2013 3:03 am

bldavis wrote:i have to give mad props to the kid playing Joffery...i have never hated someone so much as i do him..hell of an actor to play that role so well

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Re: Relationships

Postby KysenMurrin » Wed Aug 21, 2013 3:20 am

Nooska wrote:(and that is not sexist, a man striving to be manly is not a bad thing, nor is a woman striving to womanly - that is the default for socieital standards - what "being manly" or "being womanly" entails may be different based on cultural context).

What I think you're missing here is the fact that the societal standards are fundamentally sexist in attitude, even if those who perpetuate them don't consider themselves to be so.

No, it is not sexist for a man to strive to be "manly". In and of itself. But when society considers men who are not trying to be "manly" to be unacceptable, and signifies this by comparing them to women, that is sexist. The traits that make up "manliness" do not really have any connection to which genitalia a person has - but the culture has created an image whereby gender is an essential part of the stereotypes it tries to enforce.

When you look at what are considered "manly" traits, and "womanly" traits, you can't really say that society enforcing those roles, insulting and degrading those who fail to fill them, and using gender to define those roles, is not sexist.

When a person demonstrates bravery, confidence, strength, we refer to them as "having balls". Because to have balls is to be masculine, and to be a man is to be strong, as far as our culture is concerned. To be weak and ineffectual is to be a pussy, feminine. I don't see how you can claim that isn't sexist.
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Re: Relationships

Postby lythac » Wed Aug 21, 2013 3:47 am

KysenMurrin wrote:When a person demonstrates bravery, confidence, strength, we refer to them as "having balls". Because to have balls is to be masculine, and to be a man is to be strong, as far as our culture is concerned. To be weak and ineffectual is to be a pussy, feminine. I don't see how you can claim that isn't sexist.


"Having balls" doesn't just have positives as it also includes recklessness and foolhardiness. I always thought the expression related more to testosterone (rather than the actual balls) given the possible emotional side-effects of low testosterone can be a decrease in motivation, lack of self-confidence and depression.

When something "is bollocks" or someone is "talking bollocks" it generally isn't good. So overall our testicles have positive and negative attitudes attached to them.
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Re: Relationships

Postby Nooska » Wed Aug 21, 2013 4:46 am

I've heard the refrence to having balls (or gonads or whatever euphemism used) used more negatively than positively - or at least ironically - in cases relating to doing stupid stuff (I wouldn't have the balls to do X)

Also, while societal standars could be viewed as sexist (depends alot on where you are), they are, by definition not, as it isn't sexist to do what your culture expects of you - it may be sexist to do so in other cultures, but if it is, by definition, the norm, then it is also, by definition not sexism.

For sexism to be an applicable label, it has to be an attitude and/or thoughtpattern that is not simply a result of the normal societal standards.
It wasn't sexist in the middle ages that women belonged at home taking care of the kids and the house, while men were out doing whatever (lets ignore for a second that the commmon folk did not have that much of a real gender gap, aparty from where it was a pratical application, like men being stromnger than women, so better suited for some tasks in the manual labor 'department' on a farm for instance)

In general I think that we today put too much stock in mmen and women having to be equally proficient at everything, there are biological differences, and while we accept that not everyone can be equally proficient at mental stuff (I don't want to use the phrase equally intelligent, but I'm putting it here so people get the general idea of what I'm saying), we for some reason can't accept that something that has such a profound phenotypical effect on us can actually have implications as to what the body is suited for in general.

Remember generalisations are true in general, but says nothing about any given individual; example, men are generally taller than women - that doe snot mean that the worlds tallest person could not be a woman, or that any given woman is shorter than any given man - using height as that is the least inflammatory example I can come up with.
In general men will also tend to be stronger than women, for example, but there are some exceptionally strong women out there that are stronger than men in general.
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Re: Relationships

Postby KysenMurrin » Wed Aug 21, 2013 5:22 am

...I got very sweary around the middle of your post, so I think I'm gonna take a time out from this discussion before I say something inadvisable.
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Re: Relationships

Postby Amirya » Wed Aug 21, 2013 8:32 am

Nooska wrote:Also, while societal standars could be viewed as sexist (depends alot on where you are), they are, by definition not, as it isn't sexist to do what your culture expects of you - it may be sexist to do so in other cultures, but if it is, by definition, the norm, then it is also, by definition not sexism.

...what?

I'm tired, I'm grumpy, people generally annoy the everloving fuck out of me so it's worse this morning because of idiots on the way to work. So I may be misreading this entirely. But...what?

As for the rest:
Whether or not you consider the phrase "having balls" to be a positive or not, it is still tied to masculinity. And, at least around here, generally said with awe and not a little envy, regardless of how stupid the action itself is.

I don't know that anyone is actually disputing the biological differences between males and females. But the problem is how Western society treats males and females.

Men are studs, women are sluts. Men are breadwinners, women are homemakers. Men are forceful, women are bitchy. Alternatively, if you take a male/female couple, and tell a group of, oh twenty people, "this couple is in an abusive relationship," almost without fail, "why doesn't she leave him if he's hitting her?!" In this case, man is the aggressor, the woman is the victim - even if it's the opposite. But we can't say that, because that makes him look weak.
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Re: Relationships

Postby bldavis » Wed Aug 21, 2013 10:22 am

lythac wrote:
bldavis wrote:i have to give mad props to the kid playing Joffery...i have never hated someone so much as i do him..hell of an actor to play that role so well

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hated her too, but it was just a character...after watching a episode or 2 of GoT i would punch joffery if i saw him somewhere
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Re: Relationships

Postby cdan » Wed Aug 21, 2013 12:01 pm

Amirya wrote:
Nooska wrote:Also, while societal standars could be viewed as sexist (depends alot on where you are), they are, by definition not, as it isn't sexist to do what your culture expects of you - it may be sexist to do so in other cultures, but if it is, by definition, the norm, then it is also, by definition not sexism.

...what?

I'm tired, I'm grumpy, people generally annoy the everloving fuck out of me so it's worse this morning because of idiots on the way to work. So I may be misreading this entirely. But...what?

As for the rest:
Whether or not you consider the phrase "having balls" to be a positive or not, it is still tied to masculinity. And, at least around here, generally said with awe and not a little envy, regardless of how stupid the action itself is.

I don't know that anyone is actually disputing the biological differences between males and females. But the problem is how Western society treats males and females.

Men are studs, women are sluts. Men are breadwinners, women are homemakers. Men are forceful, women are bitchy. Alternatively, if you take a male/female couple, and tell a group of, oh twenty people, "this couple is in an abusive relationship," almost without fail, "why doesn't she leave him if he's hitting her?!" In this case, man is the aggressor, the woman is the victim - even if it's the opposite. But we can't say that, because that makes him look weak.



..and to think Western society is actually the most progressive in terms of how women are treated.
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Re: Relationships

Postby Amirya » Wed Aug 21, 2013 1:14 pm

I also forgot: Men are supposed to be stoic, women are supposed to be emotional crybuckets.

Case in point - Hannah Anderson. I follow discussion threads on yahoo and cnn because they entertain me. Almost without fail, she must be involved, because she's not grieving properly. Whatever the hell that means.
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Re: Relationships

Postby Delphineas » Wed Aug 21, 2013 1:34 pm

FUCK YEAH! BRAIN SURGERY!


Obamacare is a mixed blessing. Got on my dads insurance finally in July, only until November 10, my 26th birthday. So paperwork has been a bit rushed. Tomorrow I head down to Mayo for a head scan(MRI or CT, still not sure), and the 26th I have one of possibly 2 surgeries.


I have genetic general dystonia, which basically means some of my muscle groups are constantly spasming. The most problematic are my neck and back, though it affects my arms and legs as well. Mostly centered on my left side. Botox can help, but too expensive and has to be done every 3 months. Deep Brain Stimulation, or DBS, is hopefully a more permanent treatment. Basically I get a battery placed in my chest, with wires leading up to my skull under the skin, with 1 or 2 electrodes in my brain. In other words, a pacemaker for the brain.

One downside in my case, is that I won't be conscious for the surgery. Normally, the patient would be awake so they can fish for the most effective placement of the electrodes. My head simply moves too much for that, so once they're in, they're in. I view it a a bit of a plus, because being awake while they tinker with my head would be freaky as fucking hell.



Oh, and late next month I get my wisdom teeth pulled. Ho-fucking-rah
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Re: Relationships

Postby Sabindeus » Wed Aug 21, 2013 1:44 pm

Fivelives wrote:
Sabindeus wrote:
Fivelives wrote:Channel the energy into something positive, maybe take up a sport or start putting in the effort to get a promotion at work. Go back to school, learn a new skill or language. There are a million different ways to vent that don't involve calling your ex an "ungrateful cunt" (even if she is. Particularly if she is).


Tangent time!

I've never understood the whole "channel anger into something positive/constructive" thing. Like, I've never once been able to do anything constructive unless I'm calm. When I'm angry the only things I can do are destructive, like punching something or someone. How does one accomplish this?


Time for practical advice:

The way you do this is by fixing the thing that made you angry in the first place. If someone says or does something to you that makes you angry, there is a core of truth in what they said or did. When you get angry, that means you've admitted that someone was right about what they said/did to you.

Say for instance, you're struggling to lose 20 pounds. Someone calls you fat, and this angers you. Take that anger to the gym. Or maybe you were a mediocre student and someone calls you stupid. Take that anger and use it as a "whip" to keep you on track while studying a new subject. Perhaps someone tells you that you'll never amount to anything - again, this angers you. Use that anger as fuel to get a promotion at work. It works on compound issues just as well as on simple issues, but first you have to examine it to see what simple issues comprise the compound issue. Or put more simply, break down the mountain one rock at a time.

I'm not saying you should sit down when you're angry and try to make beadwork necklaces or whatever other bullshit people say you should do with it. Use it for practical purposes that will show results. That's the thing about anger; it tends to focus our attention on itself. It can, left unchecked, feed itself until it consumes everything - or it can be purposefully aimed for good purposes and let out a little bit at a time. See, the more you work on fixing whatever it is that made you angry in the first place, the less that thing can control you in the future.

So lose the weight, get the degree, get the promotion, get whatever use you can out of it. Then one day you wake up and realize - you're not angry anymore. Because there has been a measurable change in your life and the root cause of the anger (that core of truth behind every insult that "stings") no longer applies to you.

As far as the language debate is concerned, it's the thought behind the word that counts. Calling someone a cunt is essentially telling them that they are not a person, but rather a vehicle for their reproductive purposes. It dehumanizes them. But flip that around - personally, I use terms like that as pet names rather than insults and I don't care if others use them. Why? Because it will always backfire when you insult someone using "Those Words" and instead of insulting the person you were aiming the jab at, you're just proving that you yourself are an ass.

I also don't believe that censoring words does any good. Again, it boils down to meaning - substituting the word "fork" for "fuck", for instance, just turns the word fork into a "dirty word".


What if the rage is at a situation rather than a person, or if the rage at the person is because they're an incompetent piece of shit who you don't understand why they still have a job at an otherwise sane company :|
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Re: Relationships

Postby Brekkie » Thu Aug 22, 2013 8:43 am

KysenMurrin wrote:Slightly odd reasoning there. If "pussy" is insulting to a man then that's through the assumption that being a woman is an inherently bad thing, which is indeed sexist and insulting to women.

(Doesn't mean you can't still use these words. Context is key.)


Woah, woah, woah...

You guys have it all wrong.
Calling someone a Pussy because they are cowardly is comparing them to a cat, not to a woman. Because cats, aka Pussycats, are cowardly, and flinch from sudden movements.

You are probably confused because Vaginas are also often called Pussies. But this is because they, like Pussycats, are soft and cuddly and furry and cute and desirable for companionship. All of which are quite positive and wonderful things.

A man calling another man a Pussy is not derogatory towards women. Its two unrelated comparisons to felines.
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Re: Relationships

Postby Nikachelle » Thu Aug 22, 2013 10:04 am

Except I think the meaning of that has gotten twisted over the years.

I certainly don't think of cats if I hear the word "pussy" used. Maybe when I was 5.

In fact, the word is so twisted now that I end feeling stupid calling my cat a pussycat and end up calling him a puddytat now.

Also, I have no admit I burst out laughing at your third paragraph. :D
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Re: Relationships

Postby Maverick13 » Fri Aug 23, 2013 2:41 am

But surely thats the trouble with so many words in language -- earlier in this thread someone was saying they wouldn't use the term gay, Now i used to know an old Squadron Ldr - he was the typical 1940's Spitfire pilot type with twirling moustache and all, who used the term Gay to mean bright and colourful and faggots were something he'd eat with peas and gravy, Yes language changes and not always for the better, but context and meaning play an important part in all communication.

Also not getting into the fact that almost any word nowadays seems to be used as a slur on someone <<< god I feel old
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Re: Relationships

Postby Fivelives » Fri Aug 23, 2013 11:21 pm

Sabindeus wrote:What if the rage is at a situation rather than a person, or if the rage at the person is because they're an incompetent piece of shit who you don't understand why they still have a job at an otherwise sane company :|


Then fix the situation, or don't get upset about it. Getting upset about a situation you can't fix is pointless. In the case of being enraged about someone else, use that to make yourself look that much better by comparison. Eventually you'll end up in the position where you can do something about it, like fire the useless shitbag.
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Re: Relationships

Postby Skye1013 » Sun Aug 25, 2013 1:35 pm

First off, hi peeps, long time no see :D.

Secondly, in regards to the language discussion... I generally try to avoid using slurs of any type (especially when directed towards a person.) I do swear ({son of a} bitch, shit, fuck, etc.) but 99% of the time, I'm not swearing at someone, I'm swearing at a situation (I just stubbed my toe or dropped a plate of food all over the floor or some video game NPC is "cheating" and I'm pissed off at it.)

As for whether the slurs are racist/sexist/etc. Yes, I feel they are, even if you might not be intending it as such. The N word originally had a definition of "a socially disadvantaged class of persons." Over time, it became equated with dark-skinned/black people due to constant use as a derogatory term towards them specifically. As a society, we haven't fully stamped out racism, and as such, this meaning is still pretty much in full force.

Alternately, the C word never really had a non-derogatory definition. Merriam-webster even states "usually obscene : the female genital organs."

In regards to gay... I have to watch myself, because even I sometimes think "this movie is gay" or whatnot... that is largely due to growing up around that context of the word (as opposed to the original use of "being happy".) It is a demeaning term (perhaps less so to me as it might be to others, but then I'd like to think I have a fairly thick skin.) Honestly, when was the last time you thought "this movie/song/whatever is gay" and felt that was a good quality of the movie/song/whatever? And for fag, I feel that is a stronger, more derogatory version of the same thing.

There are many other words that I could list out here that had benign meanings initially, but through constant overuse in a demeaning/derogatory way have lost that (relatively) benign definition.

I think if society as a whole began to reuse these terms in accordance with the original definitions, then at that point the discussion of whether the words are racist/sexist/etc. would be a bit more murky.

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Re: Relationships

Postby Rhiannon » Sun Aug 25, 2013 1:58 pm

Skye1013 wrote:The N word originally had a definition of "a socially disadvantaged class of persons." Over time, it became equated with dark-skinned/black people due to constant use as a derogatory term towards them specifically.


Just an fyi, that etymology isn't accurate. It stems from latin for the word black via some descendant languages, nothing to do with social disadvantage.

Edit: you're probably thinking of the word niggard, which has a completely different etymology and is entirely distinct from the n word.
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Re: Relationships

Postby Nooska » Mon Aug 26, 2013 1:43 am

I just want to be clear about what we are talking about;
"the N word" that would be "Nigger"? correct?
If so, as Rhiannon says, it is a bastardisation of "Negro", which simply means black.

As to the word "niggard", I've never encountered it before, but given the word similarities, I would assume its a further bastardisation of the word "nigger" where an assumed or prejudged class was added to the word by making it slightly different - like we verb-alize or adjectify (or nounfy, though seldomly) other classes of words.

As for the word "cunt", it is also very different dependant on your nationality.
Merriam-webster is the generally used US version. The british verison (from Oxford English Dictionary is "an unpleasant or stupid person", and the Macquarie Dictionary states it as "a despicable man".

Summa summarum, words are actually neither derogaroty nor sexist themselves, its what the user puts into the expression, or what the reader/listener reads into it when hearing/reading it themselves - what is put or read into it, may be a result of common usage, and common usage should be something to be aware of when specifically addressing a group of people, howvere, I will maintain, as I have previously (and elsewhere) for years:
What "you" read into what I'm writing is something "you" must take responsibility for - I cannot possibly write a single post without it being offensive to someone somewhere, and I should not (and will not) censor myself for the benefit of someone with a (vastly) different cultural usage of certain words than my own.
There are words I will not use in the course of normal posting, nor in speaking, because they, to me, are crude and/or derogatory to a point that I don't see myself using them in a non-derogatory manner (excepting posts like this one where I refer to a word, I've never understood the need for using abbreviations, everyone nows what the word is - usually - and those that don't have no clue whats being talked about and can't use that nowdlegd to moderate themselves according to their environments).
However, this is the internet, and I will usually give people leeway in regards to intepreting their writing, as I said, this is the internet, and anything "we" say (post) reaches a much larger audience than "we" can possibly account for, including those that would take offense at, what to us is, innocuous things.
Main Characters:
Nooska, Blood Elf BM/SV Hunter on Argent Dawn (EU)
Morosin, Bloody freezing orc death knight on Argent Dawn (EU)
Niisca, Shady forsaken "priest" on Argent Dawn (EU)

Keeper Emeritus of the BM hunters guide on Elitist Jerks and the wowhead version untill patch 5.3.
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Re: Relationships

Postby Levantine » Mon Aug 26, 2013 5:38 am

Taking an ex on a date to a fancy restaurant on Wednesday night. Ugh. Don't even know wtf I'm doing anymore but this feels good.
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Levantine
 
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