Relationships

Invisusira's playground

Moderators: Aergis, Invisusira

Re: Relationships

Postby Lieris » Tue Aug 20, 2013 8:44 am

Barathorn wrote:
Lieris wrote:Thank you for mansplaining to me why bitch and cunt are not sexist words.

There aren't enough roll eyes smilies in the world. :roll: :roll:


Yeah I am with you here Lieris, I never use either of those words. they fall into the same 'do not use ever box' as Rape and 'any slang term' for any race for me.

I swear a lot. But I tend to swear using terms such as F***bunnies and P***flaps.


You are good people Bara.

The oblivious irony of men justifying those words by linking them to supposed behaviour when they have are used so often to silence, humiliate and put women in their place just for displaying traits that would be considered positive in a man (assertiveness, confidence etc.) shouldn't be lost on anyone.
Lieris
Maintankadonor
 
Posts: 1522
Joined: Mon Jun 18, 2007 7:49 am

Re: Relationships

Postby Barathorn » Tue Aug 20, 2013 8:49 am

I think Adam Hills summed it up perfectly when he said,

Don't be a dick.

It would appear most people think being a dick is clever and posting to make a point is cool. They miss the fact that it isn't what you post, it is how you post.

How has this once mighty place fallen to this.
Sabindeus wrote:I feel like I should get a t-shirt made for me that says "Not Socially Awkward, Just Fat".

Brekkie wrote:The world will always need people to dig ditches.
User avatar
Barathorn
Moderator
 
Posts: 5255
Joined: Thu Jul 05, 2007 1:08 am
Location: Hitting Panda's over the head with a cricket bat shouting Get Orf My Lawn!

Re: Relationships

Postby Nikachelle » Tue Aug 20, 2013 9:10 am

Sabindeus wrote:
Certain characteristics, and their gender. You can't just ignore the gendered basis of the c-word any more than you can ignore the racial slur background of the n-word.

This comment held the most weight for me.

As a woman, I find myself far more inclined to use the negative words for male appendages than I do the female ones. That being said I don't believe the word asshole has the same impact as the c-word, so it really does come down to how you were raised and what your biases are. I take MAJOR issue with the words fag or gay though. God I hate those.
User avatar
Nikachelle
Maintankadonor
 
Posts: 8406
Joined: Mon Mar 23, 2009 10:39 am
Location: Toronto, Canada

Re: Relationships

Postby bldavis » Tue Aug 20, 2013 9:27 am

Nikachelle wrote:I take MAJOR issue with the words fag or gay though. God I hate those.

same here
Image

Brekkie:Tanks are like shitty DPS. And healers are like REALLY distracted DPS
Amirya:Why yes, your penis is longer than his because you hit 30k dps in the first 10 seconds. But guess what? That raid boss has a dick bigger than your ego.
Flex:I don't make mistakes. I execute carefully planned strategic group wipes.
Levie:(in /g) It's weird, I have a collar and I dont know where I got it from, Worgen are kinky!
Levie:Drunk Lev goes and does what he pleases just to annoy sober Lev.
Sagara:You see, you need to *spread* the bun before you insert the hot dog.
User avatar
bldavis
 
Posts: 6111
Joined: Mon Sep 07, 2009 12:04 pm
Location: Searching for myself. If i get back before I return, please have me stop and wait for myself.

Re: Relationships

Postby Nooska » Tue Aug 20, 2013 9:37 am

as for "gay" it is my impression that, at least around here, that is an embraced word.

However, while I agree that cunt and bitch (I apologize if it is offensive that I write them out, but I am not persoanlly afraid of words) are on the sexist scale (since they rely on somone being female most of the time, though I have heard them used about men too), it is not misogynistic, by definition.

They do not denote a general attitude of being less.

The same as calling a man a prick or an arsehole (the closest anatomical equivalent) will usually be based on gender (though arsehole is probably the genderneutral on, since both genders have the anatomcial reference), they are, again not misandrist by definition.

Please, remember that showing disrespect in a specific case is not the same as being someone "who hates, dislikes, mistrusts, or mistreats (wo)men" (paranthesis added to make it useable for both misogyni and misandrony.

Just like someone calling someone of a different race a slur, does not automatically make the person a racist.

Using derogatory terms for individuals are for the clear majority not a representation of a general thought pattern, but more an expression of (negative) passion, and an attempt to hurt the person (or the representation of the person) to get rid of the negative passion.

What words you use in sucha situation is also based on your upbringing and the biases you have been exposed to, as you will be going for the worst and crudest and most hurtful expressions you can use. In other words, if you use these words in a heated expulsion, you are more likely to NOT be, in this case, a misogynist (or racist or whatever).

It is the use of these words in everyday reference that you would point toward the person using them being [whatever]*ist.

Also, I really want to suggest that anyone reacting to what others have written, should take a deep breath and ask themselves why they are reacting - oftentimes its because we, ourselves, are imperfect and have had one or another experience that causes the reaction - whoever we are reacting to on here is NOT the person responsible for what we have experienced, so take a deep breath, say some things out loud and tone down the reaction while writing it, please*.



* One of the things I admire most about the maintankadin community is that we can discuss (and argue) about almost anything, without it actually getting personal. Especially in this thread, it is important to remember, that there will be comments made in the heat of passion (both directions), and that this thread is especially made for those remarks too.
Main Characters:
Nooska, Blood Elf BM/SV Hunter on Argent Dawn (EU)
Morosin, Bloody freezing orc death knight on Argent Dawn (EU)
Niisca, Shady forsaken "priest" on Argent Dawn (EU)

Keeper Emeritus of the BM hunters guide on Elitist Jerks and the wowhead version untill patch 5.3.
User avatar
Nooska
 
Posts: 1598
Joined: Sun Nov 27, 2011 10:55 am

Re: Relationships

Postby bldavis » Tue Aug 20, 2013 9:42 am

Image
Image

Brekkie:Tanks are like shitty DPS. And healers are like REALLY distracted DPS
Amirya:Why yes, your penis is longer than his because you hit 30k dps in the first 10 seconds. But guess what? That raid boss has a dick bigger than your ego.
Flex:I don't make mistakes. I execute carefully planned strategic group wipes.
Levie:(in /g) It's weird, I have a collar and I dont know where I got it from, Worgen are kinky!
Levie:Drunk Lev goes and does what he pleases just to annoy sober Lev.
Sagara:You see, you need to *spread* the bun before you insert the hot dog.
User avatar
bldavis
 
Posts: 6111
Joined: Mon Sep 07, 2009 12:04 pm
Location: Searching for myself. If i get back before I return, please have me stop and wait for myself.

Re: Relationships

Postby Nooska » Tue Aug 20, 2013 9:44 am

bldavis wrote:Image

Damn he looks ironic while clapping.
Main Characters:
Nooska, Blood Elf BM/SV Hunter on Argent Dawn (EU)
Morosin, Bloody freezing orc death knight on Argent Dawn (EU)
Niisca, Shady forsaken "priest" on Argent Dawn (EU)

Keeper Emeritus of the BM hunters guide on Elitist Jerks and the wowhead version untill patch 5.3.
User avatar
Nooska
 
Posts: 1598
Joined: Sun Nov 27, 2011 10:55 am

Re: Relationships

Postby bldavis » Tue Aug 20, 2013 9:45 am

it wasnt meant to be ironic...it just happens to be the first clapping gif i found :P
Image

Brekkie:Tanks are like shitty DPS. And healers are like REALLY distracted DPS
Amirya:Why yes, your penis is longer than his because you hit 30k dps in the first 10 seconds. But guess what? That raid boss has a dick bigger than your ego.
Flex:I don't make mistakes. I execute carefully planned strategic group wipes.
Levie:(in /g) It's weird, I have a collar and I dont know where I got it from, Worgen are kinky!
Levie:Drunk Lev goes and does what he pleases just to annoy sober Lev.
Sagara:You see, you need to *spread* the bun before you insert the hot dog.
User avatar
bldavis
 
Posts: 6111
Joined: Mon Sep 07, 2009 12:04 pm
Location: Searching for myself. If i get back before I return, please have me stop and wait for myself.

Re: Relationships

Postby Nooska » Tue Aug 20, 2013 9:51 am

bldavis wrote:it wasnt meant to be ironic...it just happens to be the first clapping gif i found :P

Yeah, I figured :mrgreen:
Main Characters:
Nooska, Blood Elf BM/SV Hunter on Argent Dawn (EU)
Morosin, Bloody freezing orc death knight on Argent Dawn (EU)
Niisca, Shady forsaken "priest" on Argent Dawn (EU)

Keeper Emeritus of the BM hunters guide on Elitist Jerks and the wowhead version untill patch 5.3.
User avatar
Nooska
 
Posts: 1598
Joined: Sun Nov 27, 2011 10:55 am

Re: Relationships

Postby Fridmarr » Tue Aug 20, 2013 10:15 am

Lieris wrote:The oblivious irony of men justifying those words by linking them to supposed behaviour when they have are used so often to silence, humiliate and put women in their place just for displaying traits that would be considered positive in a man (assertiveness, confidence etc.) shouldn't be lost on anyone.

That's just it though, that's you bringing that baggage not men. To be honest, most men find assertiveness and confidence in a woman, to be very desirable traits. Who wants to hang out with anyone that has a poor opinion of themselves? That is not even the typical behavior that brings out the bitch word anyhow.

Sure there can be a fine line there, but contrary to your assertion that exists for men way more so than for woman. In that regard women can get away with WAY more of that sort of behavior than men, simply because it's socially unacceptable kick your ass. Do you have any idea how shitty the world would be if men didn't have to care about getting their ass kicked for being a dick all the time? Whatever you are thinking...multiply it by ten.

It's likely more of a sexist thing to call a man a bitch than to call a woman a bitch, as that actually is using the gender as part of the insult. Sure bitch is a gender based term, but so is "she" and "her", it's just usually the feminine version of telling someone that they are being an asshat.

I'm not really much of a name caller (well except to my close friends, but that's a different thing entirely), but the word cunt for some reason to me just sounds really terrible. That tends to cross the line a bit for me.
Fridmarr
Global Mod
 
Posts: 6465
Joined: Sun Apr 08, 2007 1:03 am

Re: Relationships

Postby Amirya » Tue Aug 20, 2013 11:01 am

I disagree with the "most men" part of your statement. That's not a male quality, that's a Western male quality. Big difference.
Image

Fetzie wrote:The Defias Brotherhood is back, and this time they are acting as racketeers in Goldshire. Anybody wishing to dance for money must now pay them protection money or be charged triple the normal amount when repairing.
Amirya
Maintankadonor
 
Posts: 2959
Joined: Tue Dec 18, 2007 2:59 am

Re: Relationships

Postby Fridmarr » Tue Aug 20, 2013 11:13 am

Fair enough, that was really an assumed context on my part.
Fridmarr
Global Mod
 
Posts: 6465
Joined: Sun Apr 08, 2007 1:03 am

Re: Relationships

Postby Paxen » Tue Aug 20, 2013 12:03 pm

"There's no cure for being a cunt."

- Bronn, speaking about King Joffrey
Paxen
 
Posts: 561
Joined: Mon Aug 17, 2009 3:38 am

Re: Relationships

Postby Era » Tue Aug 20, 2013 12:06 pm

Paxen wrote:"There's no cure for being a cunt."

- Bronn, speaking about King Joffrey


Image
"Ask stupid questions. Growth is fuelled by desire and innocence. Assess the answer,
not the question. Imagine learning throughout your life at the rate of an infant."
User avatar
Era
 
Posts: 1576
Joined: Tue May 31, 2011 5:51 am
Location: Norway/Japan

Re: Relationships

Postby bldavis » Tue Aug 20, 2013 1:22 pm

going with this min tangent - i have to give mad props to the kid playing Joffery...i have never hated someone so much as i do him..hell of an actor to play that role so well

Image
Image

Brekkie:Tanks are like shitty DPS. And healers are like REALLY distracted DPS
Amirya:Why yes, your penis is longer than his because you hit 30k dps in the first 10 seconds. But guess what? That raid boss has a dick bigger than your ego.
Flex:I don't make mistakes. I execute carefully planned strategic group wipes.
Levie:(in /g) It's weird, I have a collar and I dont know where I got it from, Worgen are kinky!
Levie:Drunk Lev goes and does what he pleases just to annoy sober Lev.
Sagara:You see, you need to *spread* the bun before you insert the hot dog.
User avatar
bldavis
 
Posts: 6111
Joined: Mon Sep 07, 2009 12:04 pm
Location: Searching for myself. If i get back before I return, please have me stop and wait for myself.

Re: Relationships

Postby Rhiannon » Tue Aug 20, 2013 2:47 pm

I don't think my posts on the profanity topic were made in an offensive or condescending manner, but judging from a couple of the responses offense was taken. That wasn't my intent, so I apologise. I was attempting to explain my point of view as uninflammatorily (doubt that's a word) as possible, as when it comes to matters of linguistics I believe personal context and interpretation plays a huge part.
Rhiannon
 
Posts: 719
Joined: Mon Mar 03, 2008 8:17 am

Re: Relationships

Postby Fivelives » Tue Aug 20, 2013 5:35 pm

Sabindeus wrote:
Fivelives wrote:Channel the energy into something positive, maybe take up a sport or start putting in the effort to get a promotion at work. Go back to school, learn a new skill or language. There are a million different ways to vent that don't involve calling your ex an "ungrateful cunt" (even if she is. Particularly if she is).


Tangent time!

I've never understood the whole "channel anger into something positive/constructive" thing. Like, I've never once been able to do anything constructive unless I'm calm. When I'm angry the only things I can do are destructive, like punching something or someone. How does one accomplish this?


Time for practical advice:

The way you do this is by fixing the thing that made you angry in the first place. If someone says or does something to you that makes you angry, there is a core of truth in what they said or did. When you get angry, that means you've admitted that someone was right about what they said/did to you.

Say for instance, you're struggling to lose 20 pounds. Someone calls you fat, and this angers you. Take that anger to the gym. Or maybe you were a mediocre student and someone calls you stupid. Take that anger and use it as a "whip" to keep you on track while studying a new subject. Perhaps someone tells you that you'll never amount to anything - again, this angers you. Use that anger as fuel to get a promotion at work. It works on compound issues just as well as on simple issues, but first you have to examine it to see what simple issues comprise the compound issue. Or put more simply, break down the mountain one rock at a time.

I'm not saying you should sit down when you're angry and try to make beadwork necklaces or whatever other bullshit people say you should do with it. Use it for practical purposes that will show results. That's the thing about anger; it tends to focus our attention on itself. It can, left unchecked, feed itself until it consumes everything - or it can be purposefully aimed for good purposes and let out a little bit at a time. See, the more you work on fixing whatever it is that made you angry in the first place, the less that thing can control you in the future.

So lose the weight, get the degree, get the promotion, get whatever use you can out of it. Then one day you wake up and realize - you're not angry anymore. Because there has been a measurable change in your life and the root cause of the anger (that core of truth behind every insult that "stings") no longer applies to you.

As far as the language debate is concerned, it's the thought behind the word that counts. Calling someone a cunt is essentially telling them that they are not a person, but rather a vehicle for their reproductive purposes. It dehumanizes them. But flip that around - personally, I use terms like that as pet names rather than insults and I don't care if others use them. Why? Because it will always backfire when you insult someone using "Those Words" and instead of insulting the person you were aiming the jab at, you're just proving that you yourself are an ass.

I also don't believe that censoring words does any good. Again, it boils down to meaning - substituting the word "fork" for "fuck", for instance, just turns the word fork into a "dirty word".
- I'm not Jesus, but I can turn water into Kool-Aid.
- A Sergeant in motion outranks an officer who doesn't know what the hell is going on.
- A demolitions specialist at a flat run outranks everybody.
User avatar
Fivelives
 
Posts: 2801
Joined: Sat Feb 16, 2008 7:55 pm

Re: Relationships

Postby Arnock » Tue Aug 20, 2013 8:20 pm

Lieris wrote:Thank you for mansplaining to me...



I'm not entirely familiar with that term, would you mind explaining it?
Image
Courage not of this earth in your eyes
Faith from far beyond lies deep inside
User avatar
Arnock
 
Posts: 2797
Joined: Tue Apr 08, 2008 6:36 pm
Location: Everywhere and nowhere

Re: Relationships

Postby Koatanga » Tue Aug 20, 2013 9:13 pm

I believe that the term "pussy" is not so much a derogatory term toward women as it is a reference to an emasculated male. It's a reefrence to the equation of penis size with prowess/bravery such that lacking prowess or bravery is equated with lacking a penis. So calling a man a "pussy" doesn't have anything to do with women lacking anything - it's entirely about the man's lack and has nothing to do with any slight toward women. A woman can also be called a "pussy", again referring to an emasculated male.

Which is why I am a bit bemused that another term for the exact same anatomical part has an entirely different meaning and is in fact quite sexist.
Un-Retired. Ish. Koatanga, Shapely, Sultry of Greenstone - Dath'Remar
Koatanga
 
Posts: 1687
Joined: Mon Nov 17, 2008 12:46 pm

Re: Relationships

Postby KysenMurrin » Wed Aug 21, 2013 12:29 am

Slightly odd reasoning there. If "pussy" is insulting to a man then that's through the assumption that being a woman is an inherently bad thing, which is indeed sexist and insulting to women.

(Doesn't mean you can't still use these words. Context is key.)
KysenMurrin
 
Posts: 4949
Joined: Thu Jun 26, 2008 6:37 am
Location: UK

Re: Relationships

Postby Nooska » Wed Aug 21, 2013 1:31 am

Kysen: actually, its not necessarily on an assumption that being a woman is a bad thing, its is more along the assumpton of female genetalia being opposite to male genetalie, and the general (wester, I'd better add) assumption that the size of the males genitalia is a direct measure of how manly he is (and that is not sexist, a man striving to be manly is not a bad thing, nor is a woman striving to womanly - that is the default for socieital standards - what "being manly" or "being womanly" entails may be different based on cultural context).
Main Characters:
Nooska, Blood Elf BM/SV Hunter on Argent Dawn (EU)
Morosin, Bloody freezing orc death knight on Argent Dawn (EU)
Niisca, Shady forsaken "priest" on Argent Dawn (EU)

Keeper Emeritus of the BM hunters guide on Elitist Jerks and the wowhead version untill patch 5.3.
User avatar
Nooska
 
Posts: 1598
Joined: Sun Nov 27, 2011 10:55 am

Re: Relationships

Postby lythac » Wed Aug 21, 2013 3:03 am

bldavis wrote:i have to give mad props to the kid playing Joffery...i have never hated someone so much as i do him..hell of an actor to play that role so well

Image
Ryshad / Lythac of <Heretic> Ravencrest-EU
User avatar
lythac
Moderator
 
Posts: 2077
Joined: Wed Sep 24, 2008 8:10 am

Re: Relationships

Postby KysenMurrin » Wed Aug 21, 2013 3:20 am

Nooska wrote:(and that is not sexist, a man striving to be manly is not a bad thing, nor is a woman striving to womanly - that is the default for socieital standards - what "being manly" or "being womanly" entails may be different based on cultural context).

What I think you're missing here is the fact that the societal standards are fundamentally sexist in attitude, even if those who perpetuate them don't consider themselves to be so.

No, it is not sexist for a man to strive to be "manly". In and of itself. But when society considers men who are not trying to be "manly" to be unacceptable, and signifies this by comparing them to women, that is sexist. The traits that make up "manliness" do not really have any connection to which genitalia a person has - but the culture has created an image whereby gender is an essential part of the stereotypes it tries to enforce.

When you look at what are considered "manly" traits, and "womanly" traits, you can't really say that society enforcing those roles, insulting and degrading those who fail to fill them, and using gender to define those roles, is not sexist.

When a person demonstrates bravery, confidence, strength, we refer to them as "having balls". Because to have balls is to be masculine, and to be a man is to be strong, as far as our culture is concerned. To be weak and ineffectual is to be a pussy, feminine. I don't see how you can claim that isn't sexist.
KysenMurrin
 
Posts: 4949
Joined: Thu Jun 26, 2008 6:37 am
Location: UK

Re: Relationships

Postby lythac » Wed Aug 21, 2013 3:47 am

KysenMurrin wrote:When a person demonstrates bravery, confidence, strength, we refer to them as "having balls". Because to have balls is to be masculine, and to be a man is to be strong, as far as our culture is concerned. To be weak and ineffectual is to be a pussy, feminine. I don't see how you can claim that isn't sexist.


"Having balls" doesn't just have positives as it also includes recklessness and foolhardiness. I always thought the expression related more to testosterone (rather than the actual balls) given the possible emotional side-effects of low testosterone can be a decrease in motivation, lack of self-confidence and depression.

When something "is bollocks" or someone is "talking bollocks" it generally isn't good. So overall our testicles have positive and negative attitudes attached to them.
Ryshad / Lythac of <Heretic> Ravencrest-EU
User avatar
lythac
Moderator
 
Posts: 2077
Joined: Wed Sep 24, 2008 8:10 am

Re: Relationships

Postby Nooska » Wed Aug 21, 2013 4:46 am

I've heard the refrence to having balls (or gonads or whatever euphemism used) used more negatively than positively - or at least ironically - in cases relating to doing stupid stuff (I wouldn't have the balls to do X)

Also, while societal standars could be viewed as sexist (depends alot on where you are), they are, by definition not, as it isn't sexist to do what your culture expects of you - it may be sexist to do so in other cultures, but if it is, by definition, the norm, then it is also, by definition not sexism.

For sexism to be an applicable label, it has to be an attitude and/or thoughtpattern that is not simply a result of the normal societal standards.
It wasn't sexist in the middle ages that women belonged at home taking care of the kids and the house, while men were out doing whatever (lets ignore for a second that the commmon folk did not have that much of a real gender gap, aparty from where it was a pratical application, like men being stromnger than women, so better suited for some tasks in the manual labor 'department' on a farm for instance)

In general I think that we today put too much stock in mmen and women having to be equally proficient at everything, there are biological differences, and while we accept that not everyone can be equally proficient at mental stuff (I don't want to use the phrase equally intelligent, but I'm putting it here so people get the general idea of what I'm saying), we for some reason can't accept that something that has such a profound phenotypical effect on us can actually have implications as to what the body is suited for in general.

Remember generalisations are true in general, but says nothing about any given individual; example, men are generally taller than women - that doe snot mean that the worlds tallest person could not be a woman, or that any given woman is shorter than any given man - using height as that is the least inflammatory example I can come up with.
In general men will also tend to be stronger than women, for example, but there are some exceptionally strong women out there that are stronger than men in general.
Main Characters:
Nooska, Blood Elf BM/SV Hunter on Argent Dawn (EU)
Morosin, Bloody freezing orc death knight on Argent Dawn (EU)
Niisca, Shady forsaken "priest" on Argent Dawn (EU)

Keeper Emeritus of the BM hunters guide on Elitist Jerks and the wowhead version untill patch 5.3.
User avatar
Nooska
 
Posts: 1598
Joined: Sun Nov 27, 2011 10:55 am

PreviousNext

Return to Arkham Asylum

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot] and 1 guest

cron

Who is online

In total there are 2 users online :: 1 registered, 0 hidden and 1 guest (based on users active over the past 5 minutes)
Most users ever online was 380 on Tue Oct 14, 2008 6:28 pm

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot] and 1 guest