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Thoughts and feels about "The Superpower"

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Postby Aalryn » Thu Feb 21, 2008 6:22 pm

Sure we should look for new sources of energy.. that is a given. We have to, we will eventually run out of oil.

'Global warming' is a natural occurring and re-occurring phenomenon that happens over a planet's life. It is a fun buzz word that drives spending right now. Buying a 'hybrid' does nothing. Hell it doesn't even save you 'gas money' since you spend so much more on the car itself. When they make a fully electric car (again) then i'll be interested simply because I hate driving to the gas station every week, not because of cost, and CERTAINLY not because of the environment.
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Postby Aalryn » Thu Feb 21, 2008 6:23 pm

fiorina wrote:
Aalryn wrote:
Snake-Aes wrote:Yeah, Trading your SUV for a hybrid has quite a bit to do with it. Cars are the biggest "villains" on the CO2 emissions.



actually livestock is. all of the cars in the world dont account for even 2% of the total worlds emissions.


of course... and not counting some severe volcano explosion which usually happens once per 25 years, it will shit out more CO2 than all cars altogether for last 20 years...

But no, turn off the lights, give money to green goverment.. because bad things are going to happen!!


I am not saying go ahead with pollution or deforestation, but I am strongly against any "green politics". It stinks. There is a big flashing light above their heads saying "give me your money and I will regulate your life and protect you from some future threat even scientist can't find consensus why is happening".



agreed 110%

being 'green' is nothing more than a way for businesses to make money and for the news to sell papers. Hell i'm not even against that.. i'm all out for people to make a quick buck, but it sickens me how people make it their entire life's goal to 'save the planet'
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Postby fiorina » Thu Feb 21, 2008 6:38 pm

Really last thing in this thread.

Have you noticed how "green lobby" changed vocabulary in last 3 years? They fed us with global warming last 10 years, with tons of studies and scientists.
Now recent studies are showing it's colder here, more humid there, bit hot over there, new tornado in Jimbo, no tornado in Bimbo. So the catchphrase has been tuned to "A Climate changes"... Behold!
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Postby Levantine » Thu Feb 21, 2008 9:46 pm

See, I'm not a greenie, quite far from it actually. The thing I don't get is, why you are all so against something as simple as swapping the lightbulbs you use and turning lights off when you don't need them, or swapping to water efficient shower heads.

I personally don't buy into the ZOMG GLOBAL WARMING WE'RE ALL GOING TO DIE! but saying that, I know that our CO2 emissions aren't a good thing, and they aren't insignificant. Sure, livestock are the biggest producers of CO2, but that's like saying murder is a worse crime than assault and battery. Sure it is, but does that make the assault any less criminal? I don't think so.

If I can lower my contribution to CO2 emissions by swapping lightbulbs (which end up cheaper, since in my experience, they last much longer) and catching a bus when possible, or lowering my impact on our damns by having shorter showers (I live in Australia, where most of the country is suffering unprecedented droughts, barring this recent and completely fucked up strange wet season), then I'm going to do it, and not even think about it.

You're all making it seem like such tiny things are a big deal, and you're doing a good thing by "FIGHTING THE GREENIE PROPAGANDA", heads up, you aren't.
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Postby Aalryn » Thu Feb 21, 2008 9:54 pm

Levantine wrote:See, I'm not a greenie, quite far from it actually. The thing I don't get is, why you are all so against something as simple as swapping the lightbulbs you use and turning lights off when you don't need them, or swapping to water efficient shower heads.


You're all making it seem like such tiny things are a big deal, and you're doing a good thing by "FIGHTING THE GREENIE PROPAGANDA", heads up, you aren't.



This isn't what i'm saying at all. I -did- change all of my lightbulbs. I -did- buy a new showerhead. When they produce a good fully electric car I WILL buy one.

I also do all of these things not because I want to save the environment and knowing they wont make any difference whether I do or don't. I just support new technologies and want to make things easier on myself. I also do all of these things without the 'holier than thou' attitude.


ah well.. done with this thread. it really started to suck.
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Postby YoYoMa » Fri Feb 22, 2008 12:21 am

I don't want to change my light bulbs simply because I hate the light that those eco bulbs give off. If it was the exact same light, and the bulb cost me the same, sure I'd swap over. I'm not against doing it, I'm just not willing to decrease my quality of life over it.

Same with and SUV. I'm not willing to trade in my wife's SUV for a little put put hybrid. We haul all kinds of crap in that thing. And as aalryn said, it's not like it's going to save me any money, I spend all the savings in the extra cost of the car.

But these are all minor things, political buzz words that get people all fired up. What is really ironic, is you have a group of people touting dooms day if we don't change, yet they are unwilling to replace our coal power plants with 0 emission nuclear plants. The same people that want us to all drive hybrids while they fly around in gulfstream jets. Follow the $$ and you will find their motives.

There are over 6 billion people on the planet. Of course we are going to have an impact. But we are an extremely extremely adaptable species and trust me, if the temperature goes up 5 degrees worldwide, we'll be fine. Like I said, I'm not against helping out where I can, but by the same token, I'm not going to reduce my quality of life to do so.
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Postby Levantine » Fri Feb 22, 2008 12:31 am

Nuclear power produces fucktons of toxic waste. Not reaaaallllly a good long term fix, imo. ;D
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Postby Aalryn » Fri Feb 22, 2008 1:04 am

Levantine wrote:Nuclear power produces fucktons of toxic waste. Not reaaaallllly a good long term fix, imo. ;D



actually no it doesn't. This is an EXTREME misconception. People think nuclear and immediately associate it to waste. There have been a LOT of advances in nuclear techniques in the last -40 years- including techniques so efficient that the products are 100% inert. IN FACT they can use old toxic waste to produce power and turn it into an inert compound.


the problem is that we would have to rebuild and refurbish our existing power supplies as well as build new ones. The upfront cost is high, but after that you have 100% clean power. (France has been doing this for years. 100% of their power is from these types of nuclear power plants that produce no waste)
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Postby Guldylohx » Fri Feb 22, 2008 1:15 am

Disclaimer: Tired and still sick. Also not an eco-freak (too lazy).

I'm a little amused at how this thread (which I thought was originally on feelings and thoughts about America, the USA in particular) near the end became a discussion about the environment and global warming. I skimmed the last couple of pages. Skimmed, mind you, not fully read. And I saw some pretty hard and fast opinions. At which I couldn't help but either LOL or just shake my head.

My Opinion: Global Warming is real, and while in a sense it is a natural and recurring event, I do believe it is being artificially accelerated by cumulative human impact.

Barely substantiated, poorly remembered piece of evidence #1: Either in the US or worldwide, we collectively use 1.3 (or 1.4, hence the disclaimer) year's worth of resources in the span of 1 year. An unsustainable lifestyle. Sure to be rife with waste and excess. (Not even going to bother with the logistics of population numbers worldwide)

-I wanna attribute this to Reader's Digest (again, media so I'm not entirely sure on it's impartiality)

Barely substantiated, poorly remembered piece of evidence #2: Petroleum and coal deposits are composed mainly of ancient (read: millions of years) degraded and "transformed" flora and fauna. And we've all but used up every known source in the past 5,000 or so years. Again, unsustainable.

-Grade school teachings and a little connecting the dots (I'm American, so feel free to poke fun at that, even if nothing else :D )

Barely substantiated, poorly remembered piece of evidence #3: Many people misunderstand exactly what a "theory" is. What most people think of when they hear "theory" is actually MUCH closer to the term "hypothesis". Here's what I found on Dictionary.com:

Theory:
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/theory

Hypothesis:
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/hypothesis

As I understand it: Theories are made for lack of irrefutable laws, but are otherwise able to be taken as fact (eg: Theory of Gravity. Mechanics are still in question, but you can't deny it's existence), while hypotheses are the "what if this..." of the scientific method. A hypothesis is what exists near the beginning of and is what helps guide the experiments/observations, whereas a theory is written as the best explanation for events that have been seen/documented. Therefore, theory is all but concrete. It is by no means a shot in the dark, scientifically speaking.

-More substantiated than the others, but still drawing heavily on my own reasonings.

Granted, he is just a high school science teacher, and his opinions are obviously biased, but he does make an interesting argument nonetheless:

http://www.break.com/index/tough-to-argue.html

...which would end up being the bulk of my argument. Seeing as I'm tired and don't really want to think too hard right now. If you have the patience and/or time, be sure to watch all the subsequent videos he's produced. They actually go into better detail than this original. But this one is still worth watching, since it establishes the idea.

Side note: [edit]Nuclear power will become more viable as it's public image is changed to a more accurate one. [end-edit] And yeah, most of the "green earth for a better tomorrow" fanatics have ulterior motives.

My point is: until we can account for every variable, we can't be certain. But like it's been stated before, no action on account of being stubborn is not necessarily the best policy. We've had different versions of impending calamity followed by an initial response of apathy bite us in the ass before.

k, /endrant. Feel free to pick apart, but please do so in a courteous manner.
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Postby Fivelives » Fri Feb 22, 2008 2:50 am

Just a few things. This thread started out nicely but I think I had the last "on topic" post before it degenerated.

America's "national debt" is mostly owed to the people that bought war bonds in World War 2. Our economy relies on a small trade deficit, which only amounts to a couple billion dollars per year, rather than the national debt figure, which is rapidly approaching the 10 trillion mark. If the government would stop paying interest on the war bonds, thus encouraging people to actually turn them in, the national debt would start to fall, rather than rise exponentially. It opens up another big huge can of worms, though, because America can't afford to pay it. If interest were stopped, or even slowed, then there would be a rush to cash in on them and we'd have to declare bankruptcy as a nation. There's a reason a debt is called a "debt".

As regards living green.

We can't only take weather observations into account, the very valid point was raised earlier in this thread about our observations spanning a time period that's too short to be significant. However, a lot can be determined by geological and archaeological research. Let me put my position firmly on the side of the "cycles of warming/cooling are natural, but we might be exacerbating and hastening the effect". That said, I drive a small (but very fast) car, and all of the lightbulbs in my house are flourescent bulbs. I haven't had to change a lightbulb in 7 years.

As regards renewable power sources versus wasteful power sources.

You've got 6 of one, half a dozen of the other, here. Every conceivable power source is going to have its drawbacks. For wind/solar driven power sources, it's system maintenance. For hydro-power, it's water table and flora/fauna impact. Nuclear power sources carry a (relatively) high risk and is costly to set up/maintain. Oil and coal are non-renewable resources... Once we run out of those, we're boned. Let me reiterate here, though, that there is a difference between coal and charcoal. Coal is closer to oil, whereas charcoal is partially burnt wood. The two are about as similar as apples and horse turds.
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Postby Oramac » Fri Feb 22, 2008 9:04 am

fiorina wrote:will tell you which car you should use


no hippie motherfucker is ever gonna tell me which car im gonna drive. i'll be burning rubber in front of the EPA headquarters out of spite.
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Postby Annabelle » Fri Feb 22, 2008 9:15 am

Oramac wrote:
fiorina wrote:will tell you which car you should use


no hippie motherfucker is ever gonna tell me which car im gonna drive. i'll be burning rubber in front of the EPA headquarters out of spite.


FUCK YEAH !!!
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Postby Thesupreme » Fri Feb 22, 2008 10:51 am

Oramac wrote:
fiorina wrote:will tell you which car you should use


no hippie motherfucker is ever gonna tell me which car im gonna drive. i'll be burning rubber in front of the EPA headquarters out of spite.


u r so c00l
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Postby Catriona » Fri Feb 22, 2008 10:57 am

Oramac wrote:
fiorina wrote:will tell you which car you should use


no hippie motherfucker is ever gonna tell me which car im gonna drive. i'll be burning rubber in front of the EPA headquarters out of spite.

I lol'd only because my cop father had to provide security for a PETA convention, and at lunch all of them sat in front of the building eating the huge Carl's Jr (Hardee's for you Easterners, I think?) hamburgers.

My dad is so cool. :D
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Postby Oramac » Fri Feb 22, 2008 12:42 pm

Thesupreme wrote:
Oramac wrote:
fiorina wrote:will tell you which car you should use


no hippie motherfucker is ever gonna tell me which car im gonna drive. i'll be burning rubber in front of the EPA headquarters out of spite.


u r so c00l


i like what i like. you like what you like. i dont mind having an eco-friendly house and whatnot, but ill be damned if someones gonna take the awesome thrill of horsepower under ones right foot away from me.
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