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Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Klaudandus » Sun Jun 08, 2014 8:53 am

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Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Sagara » Sun Jun 08, 2014 10:34 am

Klaudandus wrote:http://www.cbsnews.com/news/texas-republicans-endorse-reparative-therapy-for-gays/

ugh


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And the Republicans wonder why they keep losing the so-called "fringe" groups. What's worse is that they basically shut down a part of their own electorate to pass a platform that basically denies them as a group.

I can get our NVA passing messages that shoot down the french-speaking in Belgium, because no freaking french-speaker is ever going to vote for them, but that is dumb beyond words.
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Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Klaudandus » Sun Jun 08, 2014 10:55 am

I said it before, Log Cabin Republicans are the poster child of "Stop Hitting Yourself".

The party hates them and wishes they would just shut up. They even blocked them from having a booth at the Texas GOP Convention -- and of course, now that same convention, the party comes out as endorsing gay-conversion therapy...

Log Cabin Republicans are pretty much a text-case of battered wife syndrome. Why they stick with the GOP? I honestly have no idea.

If my party was trying to dehumanize me, I'd abandon it, regardless if the party and I had common ground on things like economic policy.
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Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Sagara » Sun Jun 08, 2014 11:33 am

See, that reminds me of my own situation. I'm fairly right-winged economically and left-winged socially, and I'm a french speaker in Flemish land (P.S. Read that, NVA? I'm in your Flanders, sitting on your land! And you'll NEVER FIND MEEEEEEEAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!). So technically, I could vote for the NVA. Practically, it also holds an economical and social agenda I could consider supporting on quite a few points.

Except. I'm clearly persona non grata - yeah I speak Dutch (part of why YOU'LL NEVER FIND ME, SUCKERS!), I'm also working since I graduated (expect for a single month), and try my freaking level best to be a law-abiding citizen, not raising a fuss that I cannot get official documents in French, because I understand the logistics of it are incredibly annoying and costly. But that doesn't matter. I was born in the wrong neighbourhood, and should thus not taint the glory of Flanders with my existence.

So NVA? I voted blue. And I'll keep voting blue. If you got a beef with me, have fun trying to find me.
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Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Nooska » Mon Jun 09, 2014 1:13 am

Bu thats the thing (the one thing where I'll tout europe as "better") - We europeans have choice. ACTUAL choice in politics.
US has "choice", you can choose between 2 things, but if you don't agree with one in general, an dthe other just has stupid, you have to choose between endorsing stupid or policy you don't agree with.
Sag, if you could choose between the NVA and the "opposite" (Leftish economical policy and rightwing social policy, neutral on frenchspeaking) - what would you choose? policy you don't agree with, or the one that doesn't like you personally?
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Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Ironshield » Mon Jun 09, 2014 3:04 am

But this is ALWAYS the problem in a democracy, you will never find a party you agree with 100% even if there were 100 viable options, unless you start it yourself, maybe. Now it appears a LOT more dramatic a difference when it comes to things like gay rights in the US (especially) because there is a pretty emphatic line drawn there. But most things are on a sliding scale of grays. So on the surface you would think the Republicans would be much better off just STFUing about these kinds of things, but the flip side of the coin is that they probably think there are more voters who might like Democrat policies but just hate the darn gays so darn much they'll put up with Republican policies to cling onto their bigotry.
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Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Passionario » Mon Jun 09, 2014 4:42 am

Nooska wrote:Bu thats the thing (the one thing where I'll tout europe as "better") - We europeans have choice. ACTUAL choice in politics.
US has "choice", you can choose between 2 things, but if you don't agree with one in general, an dthe other just has stupid, you have to choose between endorsing stupid or policy you don't agree with.

And then you have the Russian system, where no matter what you choose, Putin wins.
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Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Nooska » Mon Jun 09, 2014 5:04 am

Passionario wrote:
Nooska wrote:Bu thats the thing (the one thing where I'll tout europe as "better") - We europeans have choice. ACTUAL choice in politics.
US has "choice", you can choose between 2 things, but if you don't agree with one in general, an dthe other just has stupid, you have to choose between endorsing stupid or policy you don't agree with.

And then you have the Russian system, where no matter what you choose, Putin wins.

On the upside Putin turns 62 this year - death will win over putin at some point ;)
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Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Sagara » Mon Jun 09, 2014 10:41 am

Nooska wrote:On the upside Putin turns 62 this year - death will win over putin at some point ;)


Guys, this is the LGBT discussions, let's push politics somewhere else (I'll answer to you there Noos')

But just for the hell of it, are you SO sure?

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Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Passionario » Tue Jun 10, 2014 11:39 pm

Sagara wrote:
Nooska wrote:On the upside Putin turns 62 this year - death will win over putin at some point ;)


Guys, this is the LGBT discussions, let's push politics somewhere else (I'll answer to you there Noos')


Putin is a threat to LGBT rights:

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2 ... -turn.html
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Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Sagara » Tue Jun 10, 2014 11:51 pm

Never gonna deny that - it's more that we were steadily going off-track and it was sensible to not mix things up (again) with Politics.

At this rate, I'm really wondering if there are any place safe enough for non-hetero sexualities. Even the vaunted "progressive" Western World seems mired in bigotry and prejudice, even when the law itself tries to oppose it. And well, I've got experience enough to realize that something as innocuous as asexuality isn't easily taken seriously even here.

I guess the best we can hope is to raise the next generations to accept and respect better than we ever could.
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Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Nooska » Wed Jun 11, 2014 1:41 am

Well there are a few countries I would consider safe (apart from the 'random' extremist) for non heterosexuals (but still sexuals).

I agree asexuality isn't something that gets taken seriously (yet - hopefully), even here in the nordic countries, but I suppose thats because its easier to say "okay, you are sexually attracted to something else than me" than to accept "okay you are NOT sexually attracted to anyone" - it is so fundamentally different from the majority, that the majority of the majority just don't understand it. That being said, I think asexuals will have an easier time everuwhere, once it is undertsood what asexuality is, than those of a differing "persuasion" than heterosexuals.
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Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Amirya » Wed Jun 11, 2014 1:54 am

My experience with others dealing with asexuality seems to fall into 3 categories:

1 - Assuming that asexual is the same as no gender. "You're not asexual, you're a (wo)man!"
2 - "You just haven't met the right person yet. Once you do, you'll understand it." Same category as parents vs child-free ("It's different once you have your own children.")
3 - Understanding what exactly it entails. This is a huge minority, typically understood only by other asexuals.
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Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Sagara » Wed Jun 11, 2014 3:35 am

I'm of a mind that's a learned concept, but actually a harder one to grasp than homosexuality. It's easily conceivable to be attracted to something unusual (another gender, another species, even non-sapient things). But the absence of attraction just feels odd. And we're not helped that most representation of people not interested in sexuality are either people dangerously laser-focused on something (looking at you, Kira), or broken bird-types that refuse sexuality (and romance) into their lives. Both assumptions being dangerously false.

And Nooska, I'm honestly more worried about latent discrimination against asexuals, if only because asexuality doesn't imply a lack of romantic desire (and GOOD LUCK getting that through someone's head AND getting in a serious romance). Add to that it's ten times easier to believe an asexual is lying and trying not to hurt your feelings, and add to THAT it's a completely different paradigm of life, even more so than for an "alternate" sexual, it's nigh impossible to conceptualize.

So while I'm deadly worried of the violence that the LGBT community can suffer by being looked at as the "opposite number" in aversion, I'm also worried that in the middle, the "impossible third option" gets ignored as an utter impossibility and gets trampled in ignorance.
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Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Nooska » Wed Jun 11, 2014 11:14 am

Just thinking aloud here.. should we start putting an A in there? LGBTA networks for instance?
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Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Sagara » Wed Jun 11, 2014 12:08 pm

I think it's happening bit by bit. I've heard the term LGBTA being thrown around from time to time.
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Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Nooska » Wed Jun 11, 2014 12:41 pm

Maybe I should suggest it to the party's LGBT network, they could even change it with a coordinated press release in the summertime here, and maybe get some traction on it in the media *shrug* (I have no idea how receptive they would be, but it could make asexuality an awwareness issue ove rthe summer at least).
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Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby KysenMurrin » Wed Jun 11, 2014 12:56 pm

Some use QUILTBAG. Not saying that's not ridiculous, but hey, they're making an effort to be all-inclusive.
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Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Nooska » Wed Jun 11, 2014 1:33 pm

KysenMurrin wrote:Some use QUILTBAG. Not saying that's not ridiculous, but hey, they're making an effort to be all-inclusive.

okay, I'm gonna need a deacronymizar for that one (mostly for QUI)
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Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby KysenMurrin » Wed Jun 11, 2014 2:33 pm

I'm not entirely sure about U myself. Rest is: Queer, Intersex, Lesbian, Trans, Bi, Asex, Gay.

Edit: Ah, it's Undecided.
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Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Koatanga » Wed Jun 11, 2014 7:20 pm

It'll be so much easier when we stop worrying about others' sexual preference. Then we can all be non-acronymical "people".
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Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Fivelives » Thu Jun 12, 2014 1:51 am

Last I heard it was LGBTQQUIIA, which doesn't exactly lend itself to an easy scrabble-ization of an acronym

(Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Transgendered, Queer, Questioning, Undecided, Interested, Intersexed, Asexual)

Laser focus, guys and gals and otherwise. One issue at a time.

I'm not surprised that gays have taken over as the face of "alternate" sexuality, because they're a significant portion of the population. And pretty much includes representative portions from every slice of the global population - asexuals, on the other hand, are a different matter entirely. Asexuality is still a new concept and it's easy to go your entire life without feeling any different than anybody else because it doesn't have the visibility that the pride march invitees ensure for the LGBT community.

Sex isn't something that's considered "polite" to talk about, so not enjoying it or not feeling sexual attraction as "hey, I'd like to put my (appendage) in/on (the other person's appendage)" so much as "hey, I genuinely like this person and want to spend more time with them" doesn't feel abnormal to most asexuals because they have no other frame of reference. Sure, the media is hypersexualized and we're constantly bombarded with sex, but it's just how the world is to an asexual.

I also don't see asexuality becoming an issue on par with homosexuality. Since everyone experiences sex differently, not experiencing it at all isn't something that really requires visibility or equal rights legislation. I mean hell, everyone's heard the old saw "once she says 'I do,' she doesn't" (or some variation on that basic theme).
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Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Koatanga » Thu Jun 12, 2014 1:52 pm

Fivelives wrote:Last I heard it was LGBTQQUIIA, which doesn't exactly lend itself to an easy scrabble-ization of an acronym

(Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Transgendered, Queer, Questioning, Undecided, Interested, Intersexed, Asexual)

Well, if you drop the "Questioning" since it's a combination of "Undecided" and "Interested", or alternately drop the "Queer" as that's covered by "Gay" and "Lesbian", you end up with LGBTQUIIA. That becomes the acronym "A BIG QUILT" which is kinda poetic since it's a lot of different people combined to form one group, and amusing in that quilting is a traditional craft, and traditional folk tend to have the most issues with the "A Big Quilt" community.
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Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Klaudandus » Thu Jun 12, 2014 2:56 pm

http://www.sfgate.com/politics/article/ ... 546544.php
"Whether or not you feel compelled to follow a particular lifestyle or not, you have the ability to decide not to do that," Perry said. "I may have the genetic coding that I'm inclined to be an alcoholic, but I have the desire not to do that, and I look at the homosexual issue the same way."
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Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Koatanga » Thu Jun 12, 2014 3:06 pm

Klaudandus wrote:http://www.sfgate.com/politics/article/In-S-F-Rick-Perry-compares-homosexuality-to-5546544.php
"Whether or not you feel compelled to follow a particular lifestyle or not, you have the ability to decide not to do that," Perry said. "I may have the genetic coding that I'm inclined to be an alcoholic, but I have the desire not to do that, and I look at the homosexual issue the same way."

Lovely. So you can be born gay, but if you're a good upstanding citizen you won't act on it. There's a brilliant solution.
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