LGBT rights discussion

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Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Klaudandus » Wed Apr 09, 2014 6:21 am

Fridmarr wrote:Draco, you may want to make peace with that, for your own sake. Unless the Democrats birth another media darling, she's the next president.


Or she gets a stroke in the middle of the primaries.

For the record: I don't mind Hillary Clinton, I just don't like it how the same people that blasted Eich for his Prop-8 donation seem to give Clinton a free pass.
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Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Koatanga » Wed Apr 09, 2014 1:39 pm

Klaudandus wrote:
Koatanga wrote:
Klaudandus wrote:So if you're criticizing Eich, as a public figure, for something he did in 2008, you should also openly criticize Clinton as well. What's good for the goose is good for the gander, otherwise its cherry picking.

I disagree that you have to criticise each and every person who has ever had an anti-gay opinion if you want to criticise one person. It would be far too tedious to name all of them, in no small part because there are so gosh darned many of them. I do think Clinton is wrong to hold that opinion, obviously, if she still does (and she probably does).

As far as cherry picking, that's definitely true. Cherry-picking should be reserved for those who pick one of the 76 laws in Leviticus and decide that law, above all others, is an affront to their religion and impinges upon their religious freedom, while the other 75 are of little to no importance. They can be happy to serve bacon-eaters and people with unkempt hair, those who cheat on their spouses, or have sex with animals. It's just the gays they can't serve.


Clinton did more harm to the LGBT movement with her open support of DOMA than Eich ever did with his donation to the Prop-8 group.

She did change her tune on DOMA -LAST- year.

They can change their tune, but leopards don't change their spots. I'm pretty sure if she was to tell the truth she would espouse the conservative view of marriage. However, she didn't have Bill and whatshername put to death, so Hillary's flying in the face of Leviticus anyway.
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Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Klaudandus » Wed Apr 09, 2014 1:48 pm

Oh, I agree, it just that I am miffed at the double standard going on here between Eich and Clinton.
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Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby fuzzygeek » Wed Apr 09, 2014 5:13 pm

Check the tribes. What's done by a tribe member can always be explained, rationalized, forgiven, or ignored. Other tribe members, however, are to be burnt at the stake.
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Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Io.Draco » Wed Apr 09, 2014 6:48 pm

Fridmarr wrote:Draco, you may want to make peace with that, for your own sake. Unless the Democrats birth another media darling, she's the next president.


Or a republican might just won. Keep in mind Romney got 47% of the vote despite all the crap he did. Personally I'd hope for a more reasonable candidate like Rand Paul. I am not a republican fan mind you, but if the Democrats are going to go with that hag Clinton then the only preferable outcome for me is a republican.
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Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Skye1013 » Thu Apr 10, 2014 10:51 am

Io.Draco wrote:I am not a republican fan mind you, but if the Democrats are going to go with that hag Clinton then the only preferable outcome for me is a republican.

They have these things called "other parties" that aren't Democrat or Republican. Sure, they may not have a snowballs chance in hell of winning, but that's because pretty much everyone keeps to the same mentality of "they can't win so it's a wasted vote..."

If everyone who couldn't stand the "big two" voted for someone else, then I'd bet it'd be more than just a blip in the radar...

Anywho... back to the topic at hand:
There ARE extremists (aka bigots in this instance) on both side of the fence. That's true for pretty much any argument ever made. But outside of these individual cases, the underlying issue is still at hand: Is it okay for businesses to segregate a portion of the populace based on an individuals beliefs?

This question has been answered time and again in the past with a resounding "no." Why should it suddenly be different when a new case presents itself?

Koatanga wrote:They can change their tune, but leopards don't change their spots. I'm pretty sure if she was to tell the truth she would espouse the conservative view of marriage.

If this is true, then she knows which way the wind is blowing and is willing to compromise her beliefs to get what she wants. The ends justify the means.
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Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Klaudandus » Thu Apr 10, 2014 11:01 am

Io.Draco wrote:
Fridmarr wrote:Draco, you may want to make peace with that, for your own sake. Unless the Democrats birth another media darling, she's the next president.


Or a republican might just won. Keep in mind Romney got 47% of the vote despite all the crap he did. Personally I'd hope for a more reasonable candidate like Rand Paul. I am not a republican fan mind you, but if the Democrats are going to go with that hag Clinton then the only preferable outcome for me is a republican.

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John Huntsman was the more reasonable option in the last election cycle among the republican candidates that were vying for the presidency. Of course, he lost right away because the tea party republican movement, including likes like Sen. Ted Cruz, labels anything to the left of them as bad, like Bob Dole getting labeled a RINO.
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Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Io.Draco » Thu Apr 10, 2014 7:28 pm

Between Rand Paul's brand of idiocy and Clinton's brand of idiocy I'll take Paul. Granted I vastly prefer his father but eh what can you do.
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Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Fridmarr » Thu Apr 10, 2014 7:38 pm

Sorry, I didn't mean to cause the thread to shift to the next presidential election. That was my fault. To continue that presidential discussion, please use the politics thread and let this thread work its way back to the LGBT topic.
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Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Klaudandus » Thu Apr 10, 2014 7:42 pm

My fault as well for bringing Clinton up, although I was bringing her up in the context of the past, rather than an election context.
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Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Skye1013 » Thu Apr 10, 2014 7:52 pm

Tying both things together... how do you think it'll effect things for the LGBT community if a Republican (particularly one of the anti-LGBT types) wins the next election?
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Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Fridmarr » Thu Apr 10, 2014 7:54 pm

Klaudandus wrote:My fault as well for bringing Clinton up, although I was bringing her up in the context of the past, rather than an election context.

But you also brought her up in the context of her position of LGBT which is totally fine. To be clear, I don't mean to suggest that we can't talk politics in this thread, or that we can't talk about potential presidential candidates' views on LGBT. As long as it's LGBT related, politics and candidates are fair game.

I shifted it the discussion to the election when I suggested that's she's pretty much already locked up 2016, and that started a bit of a digression around the election and away from LGBT. We should wrap up that digressions and/or move it to the politics thread.
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Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Fridmarr » Thu Apr 10, 2014 7:59 pm

Skye1013 wrote:Tying both things together... how do you think it'll effect things for the LGBT community if a Republican (particularly one of the anti-LGBT types) wins the next election?

That's really hard to say. Congress has a huge impact too, and public opinion, which favors LGBT and will likely continue to grow that way does matter. People/parties need to get re-elected at the end of the day.

Do you think Obama was actually evolving his opinion on the matter or just merely hiding his head in the sand until his opinion became politically viable?
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Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby fuzzygeek » Thu Apr 10, 2014 9:23 pm

Fridmarr wrote:Draco, you may want to make peace with that, for your own sake. Unless the Democrats birth another media darling, she's the next president.


Don't you think she looks tired?
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Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Passionario » Mon Apr 14, 2014 12:23 am

fuzzygeek wrote:Don't you think she looks tired?

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Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Klaudandus » Mon Apr 14, 2014 9:36 am

http://www.rightwingwatch.org/content/t ... emacy-ever
'Gay Supremacy Is Becoming A Monster That Carries Greater Evils Than White Supremacy Ever Did'
*facedesk*
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Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Skye1013 » Mon Apr 14, 2014 10:00 pm

fuzzygeek wrote:
Fridmarr wrote:Draco, you may want to make peace with that, for your own sake. Unless the Democrats birth another media darling, she's the next president.


Don't you think she looks tired?

I'm happy to understand that reference :D
"me no gay, me friends gay, me no like you call me gay, you dumb dumb" -bldavis
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Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Skye1013 » Tue Apr 29, 2014 12:37 pm

"me no gay, me friends gay, me no like you call me gay, you dumb dumb" -bldavis
"Here are the values that I stand for: I stand for honesty, equality, kindness, compassion, treating people the way you wanna be treated, and helping those in need. To me, those are traditional values. That’s what I stand for." -Ellen Degeneres
"I'm not going to censor myself to comfort your ignorance." -Jon Stewart
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Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Klaudandus » Tue Apr 29, 2014 12:47 pm

Skye1013 wrote:http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2014/04/28/afa-shops-who-display-we-dont-discriminate-stickers-are-bullying-christians/


Civil Rights are not a Zero Sum game! *facedesk*
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Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Sabindeus » Wed Apr 30, 2014 1:57 pm

Klaudandus wrote:
Skye1013 wrote:http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2014/04/28/afa-shops-who-display-we-dont-discriminate-stickers-are-bullying-christians/


Civil Rights are not a Zero Sum game! *facedesk*


Civil Rights are a zero sum game between the oppressors and those who are oppressed.
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Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Klaudandus » Wed Apr 30, 2014 3:24 pm

Sabindeus wrote:
Klaudandus wrote:
Skye1013 wrote:http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2014/04/28/afa-shops-who-display-we-dont-discriminate-stickers-are-bullying-christians/


Civil Rights are not a Zero Sum game! *facedesk*


Civil Rights are a zero sum game between the oppressors and those who are oppressed.


Only in their minds.
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Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Koatanga » Wed Apr 30, 2014 8:03 pm

"They don’t want to hear that homosexuality is sinful behaviour – and they wish to silence Christians and the church who dare to believe this truth"

Imagine the gall of some people not wanting to hear hate speech. Furthermore, imagine the horrors of being oppressed by a sticker - an entire sticker - that proclaims a shop doesn't discriminate. Doesn't discriminate. Oh how can they even live in a community where discrimination is not the absolute rule! Lord help them.
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Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Skye1013 » Sat May 03, 2014 7:36 am

Was perusing reddit when I came across this little gem:

Unknown wrote:What you're missing here, though, is that homophobia and anti-lgbt attitudes aren't defined by the identity of the people in any given situation. You can't claim that homophobia only encompasses identified, open gay people called "fags" by people who KNOW they are gay online. Hurting people that straight people know are hurt by that word is only a part of why it is used as an insult.

In a broader sense, words like "pussy", "fag", "homo", "bitch", etc. are considered attached to negative qualities centered around femininity and weakness. Straight men (and a lot of gay ones, too) attach homosexuality directly to feminine weakness (among other things), and then use homophobic language to suggest another person shares those qualities. It doesn't much matter if they are actually gay or not, because that's not the point.

The point is to say that by extension of being read as queer, the individual being abused is weak, feminine, and deserving of abuse. That's the message being reinforced by normalizing the use of anti-gay slurs in casual conversation. It's just not straight people's place to tell us that "fag" doesn't mean anything anymore considering even when it's used without knowing the sexuality of the other person the word itself is used to evoke gay stereotypes.

Also, being gay and using fag isn't necessarily a bad thing, so long as you aren't hurting your fellow gay people when you do it by demonizing feminine men to suck up to straight people and show how super normal you are (which is something we see A LOT in this community).

"Fag" definitely has room to be reclaimed, BY US THOUGH, and honestly since I can't tell a gay person from a straight person in Tribunal and wouldn't be able to trust someone who identified as such in chat...it's better that nobody use it in the context of a game.

I applaud this person (the username was deleted, so no accreditation.)

The discussion thread in case you're interested.
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Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Nooska » Sat May 03, 2014 12:46 pm

One of teh first things that came to mind is how slurs are very culturally limited.
"Fag" is (and has been for a long time) slang for a cigarette in most of britain.

As for "homo", I have a hard time calling that a slur anywhere, as it is hjust a shortened form of homo-sexual.

I also have a very hard time agreeing with either "fag" or "homo" being directed at feminine weakness (and to be fair, I think the quoted posted has some latent mysoginistic or mysophobic issues of his own)

That being said, I do agree with the point that words can be reclaimed, but not by a subgroup, reclamation has to be supported by people ouside a subgroup, with the lack of hurtful intent.

If I use the danish equivalent for fag (for instance), noone would likely think it a slur (ignoring the ability to make any word a slur by tone or context), since it has been relaimed by the male homosexual community - the reclaiming and restriction of words that have been used as slurs, though is doomed to fail - if a words usages ir restricted by the reclaimers "you can't call us this, we are the only ones that can" then the word hasn't been and won't be reclaimed.
On the other hand, if you reclaim a word and start using it and stating "I am not hurt by this word, you may use it about med too, because I selfidentify with this, and it makes me stronger", then the word stops being a slur in general usage, and just becomes a nomer.
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Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Fivelives » Tue May 06, 2014 5:48 am

the reclaiming and restriction of words that have been used as slurs, though is doomed to fail - if a words usages ir restricted by the reclaimers "you can't call us this, we are the only ones that can" then the word hasn't been and won't be reclaimed.
On the other hand, if you reclaim a word and start using it and stating "I am not hurt by this word, you may use it about med too, because I selfidentify with this, and it makes me stronger", then the word stops being a slur in general usage, and just becomes a nomer.


So much this.
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