LGBT rights discussion

Invisusira's playground

Moderators: Aergis, Invisusira

Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Fridmarr » Sun Jul 22, 2012 10:33 pm

Koatanga wrote:
Fridmarr wrote:Anyhow, people can argue the religious stuff all they want for their own personal opinions, but I don't think it has much standing legally.
It doesn't have legal standing but it has an impact on the speed of which things are addressed. It is political suicide to push anything through if the majority of your constituents are against it, even if it's the right thing to do.
Well newsflash, our political leaders are wussies. They almost never do what's right for anyone but themselves. But this isn't just a political issue, at least if you can get it in front of the Supreme court, their ruling would trump all including DOMA and not have any affect on their careers since they don't really answer to anyone in that regard.
Fridmarr
Global Mod
 
Posts: 6465
Joined: Sun Apr 08, 2007 1:03 am

Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Passionario » Mon Jul 23, 2012 12:57 am

Melathys wrote:Image


Depending on the particular implementation, it might, in fact, open the way for some pretty crazy exploits.

Yes, a dog has no legal standing or ability to sign a marriage contract - but a corporation certainly does. So, for that matter, does a nation.

Bribe the president to sign a marriage treaty on behalf of the USA, get divorced, claim half of all US assets, profit. :twisted:
If you are not the flame, you're the fuel.
User avatar
Passionario
 
Posts: 2255
Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2007 2:52 am

Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Sagara » Mon Jul 23, 2012 1:13 am

Then again, Belgium's law make it pretty clear there are physical persons (people) and moral persons (companies).

That's QUITE a bit of a stretch there.

A more interesting concept would be: you might marry you best friend, or just about anyone of consenting age, without feelings or whatever. It's not *wrong* per se (marriage is, after all the religious and social baggage, just a business deal, not profoundly different from a shared or sub-let flat), just eyebrow-raising.
When that day comes, seek all the light and wonder of this world, and fight.

Worldie wrote:I used to like it [mean] back on Sylvanas.

Queldan - EU Stormrage (H) - Good night, sweet prince.
User avatar
Sagara
 
Posts: 3272
Joined: Mon Jan 12, 2009 1:04 am
Location: Belgium

Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Treck » Mon Jul 23, 2012 3:31 am

I feel like im late to the party, but LGBT rights? that doesnt sound right.
Shouldnt it be "human rights".
User avatar
Treck
 
Posts: 1431
Joined: Thu Aug 21, 2008 8:10 am

Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Levantine » Mon Jul 23, 2012 3:56 am

You'll have to ask the churchies that one.
User avatar
Levantine
 
Posts: 7367
Joined: Fri Oct 26, 2007 6:48 pm
Location: NQ, Aus

Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Skye1013 » Mon Jul 23, 2012 4:56 am

I just picked a name. You can call it whatever you want. Whole point was to move it out of Frustrations and nobody else seemed to be working towards that. /shrug
"me no gay, me friends gay, me no like you call me gay, you dumb dumb" -bldavis
"Here are the values that I stand for: I stand for honesty, equality, kindness, compassion, treating people the way you wanna be treated, and helping those in need. To me, those are traditional values. That’s what I stand for." -Ellen Degeneres
"I'm not going to censor myself to comfort your ignorance." -Jon Stewart
Horde: Clopin Dylon Sharkbait Xiaman Metria Metapriest
Alliance: Schatze Aleks Deegee Baileyi Sotanaht Danfer Shazta Rawrsalot Roobyroo
User avatar
Skye1013
Maintankadonor
 
Posts: 3548
Joined: Tue May 18, 2010 5:47 am
Location: JBPH-Hickam, Hawaii

Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Treck » Mon Jul 23, 2012 5:28 am

I wasnt complaining on the topic, its good, its beeing discussed imo.
I was mainly making a statement that its pretty obvious that the LGBT community have all the same rights as any human beeing has. Just like you dont have special rights for people who are attracted to redheads (just for the record thats very different)
User avatar
Treck
 
Posts: 1431
Joined: Thu Aug 21, 2008 8:10 am

Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Skye1013 » Mon Jul 23, 2012 5:32 am

Image
Seemed fitting for one stream of this discussion.
"me no gay, me friends gay, me no like you call me gay, you dumb dumb" -bldavis
"Here are the values that I stand for: I stand for honesty, equality, kindness, compassion, treating people the way you wanna be treated, and helping those in need. To me, those are traditional values. That’s what I stand for." -Ellen Degeneres
"I'm not going to censor myself to comfort your ignorance." -Jon Stewart
Horde: Clopin Dylon Sharkbait Xiaman Metria Metapriest
Alliance: Schatze Aleks Deegee Baileyi Sotanaht Danfer Shazta Rawrsalot Roobyroo
User avatar
Skye1013
Maintankadonor
 
Posts: 3548
Joined: Tue May 18, 2010 5:47 am
Location: JBPH-Hickam, Hawaii

Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Nikachelle » Mon Jul 23, 2012 5:41 am

Treck wrote:I was mainly making a statement that its pretty obvious that the LGBT community have all the same rights as any human beeing has.

But they don't have the same rights in certain countries.
User avatar
Nikachelle
Maintankadonor
 
Posts: 8406
Joined: Mon Mar 23, 2009 10:39 am
Location: Toronto, Canada

Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Treck » Mon Jul 23, 2012 6:49 am

I think my wording is bad mainly since English isnt my first language.
But a human is a human, thus they have human rights, thats what I mean is pretty obvious, LGBT or not theres no differance.
Yes the problem is obviously that they dont have the same rights in many countries.
User avatar
Treck
 
Posts: 1431
Joined: Thu Aug 21, 2008 8:10 am

Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Levantine » Mon Jul 23, 2012 7:02 am

Was just about to say that I thought you were trying to say something along those lines. English must truly be a horrible language to learn as a secondary. :/
User avatar
Levantine
 
Posts: 7367
Joined: Fri Oct 26, 2007 6:48 pm
Location: NQ, Aus

Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Treck » Mon Jul 23, 2012 7:16 am

Not that swedish is the best language to express yourself in, but trying to express yourself in a second language that is english, makes it easy to think you are more clear than you actually are.
User avatar
Treck
 
Posts: 1431
Joined: Thu Aug 21, 2008 8:10 am

Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Amirya » Mon Jul 23, 2012 7:36 am

Sagara wrote:A more interesting concept would be: you might marry you best friend, or just about anyone of consenting age, without feelings or whatever.

Near as I can tell, there's currently nothing written in any law that says when you obtain an opposite gender spouse, you must also love them as a spouse.
Image

Fetzie wrote:The Defias Brotherhood is back, and this time they are acting as racketeers in Goldshire. Anybody wishing to dance for money must now pay them protection money or be charged triple the normal amount when repairing.
Amirya
Maintankadonor
 
Posts: 2958
Joined: Tue Dec 18, 2007 2:59 am

Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby bldavis » Mon Jul 23, 2012 7:42 am

Amirya wrote:
Sagara wrote:A more interesting concept would be: you might marry you best friend, or just about anyone of consenting age, without feelings or whatever.

Near as I can tell, there's currently nothing written in any law that says when you obtain an opposite gender spouse, you must also love them as a spouse.

accordingly to law marriage has nothing to do with love
all it does is provide certain rights and privileges to the two people who signed the marriage contract
Image

Brekkie:Tanks are like shitty DPS. And healers are like REALLY distracted DPS
Amirya:Why yes, your penis is longer than his because you hit 30k dps in the first 10 seconds. But guess what? That raid boss has a dick bigger than your ego.
Flex:I don't make mistakes. I execute carefully planned strategic group wipes.
Levie:(in /g) It's weird, I have a collar and I dont know where I got it from, Worgen are kinky!
Levie:Drunk Lev goes and does what he pleases just to annoy sober Lev.
Sagara:You see, you need to *spread* the bun before you insert the hot dog.
User avatar
bldavis
 
Posts: 6111
Joined: Mon Sep 07, 2009 12:04 pm
Location: Searching for myself. If i get back before I return, please have me stop and wait for myself.

Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Nikachelle » Mon Jul 23, 2012 7:46 am

Treck wrote:I think my wording is bad mainly since English isnt my first language.
But a human is a human, thus they have human rights, thats what I mean is pretty obvious, LGBT or not theres no differance.
Yes the problem is obviously that they dont have the same rights in many countries.

Oh okay I got you now. :)
User avatar
Nikachelle
Maintankadonor
 
Posts: 8406
Joined: Mon Mar 23, 2009 10:39 am
Location: Toronto, Canada

Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Sagara » Mon Jul 23, 2012 8:10 am

bldavis wrote:
Amirya wrote:
Sagara wrote:A more interesting concept would be: you might marry you best friend, or just about anyone of consenting age, without feelings or whatever.

Near as I can tell, there's currently nothing written in any law that says when you obtain an opposite gender spouse, you must also love them as a spouse.

accordingly to law marriage has nothing to do with love
all it does is provide certain rights and privileges to the two people who signed the marriage contract


And that's what so interesting! Any concept of feelings or caring is left right out of the entire marriage thingie.
In a pure logical context, there's no reason to stop marriage between any two consenting adults.
When that day comes, seek all the light and wonder of this world, and fight.

Worldie wrote:I used to like it [mean] back on Sylvanas.

Queldan - EU Stormrage (H) - Good night, sweet prince.
User avatar
Sagara
 
Posts: 3272
Joined: Mon Jan 12, 2009 1:04 am
Location: Belgium

Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby bldavis » Mon Jul 23, 2012 9:14 am

exactly
im not trying to step on toes or pick a fight, but love thy neighbor doesnt extend to allowing said neighbor the same rights and privliges you enjoy through a marriage contract?

one thing that i thought of last night is
oregon is a common law state, live together for 7 years and you are considered married
does that go for LGBT couples as well?
Image

Brekkie:Tanks are like shitty DPS. And healers are like REALLY distracted DPS
Amirya:Why yes, your penis is longer than his because you hit 30k dps in the first 10 seconds. But guess what? That raid boss has a dick bigger than your ego.
Flex:I don't make mistakes. I execute carefully planned strategic group wipes.
Levie:(in /g) It's weird, I have a collar and I dont know where I got it from, Worgen are kinky!
Levie:Drunk Lev goes and does what he pleases just to annoy sober Lev.
Sagara:You see, you need to *spread* the bun before you insert the hot dog.
User avatar
bldavis
 
Posts: 6111
Joined: Mon Sep 07, 2009 12:04 pm
Location: Searching for myself. If i get back before I return, please have me stop and wait for myself.

Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Passionario » Mon Jul 23, 2012 9:26 am

Treck wrote:I feel like im late to the party, but LGBT rights? that doesnt sound right.
Shouldnt it be "human rights".

It's complicated.

The Universal Declaration of Human Rights establishes rights that are available to "All human beings" or "Everyone" - except for Article 16, which talks about the right to marry and to found a family. Said right is available to "Men and women of full age, without any limitation due to race, nationality or religion".

As you can imagine, proponents of gay marriage interpret this as "People can marry anyone, as long as everyone involved is of full age", while their opponents read it is "People can marry anyone, as long as one party is an adult man and the other is an adult woman".
If you are not the flame, you're the fuel.
User avatar
Passionario
 
Posts: 2255
Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2007 2:52 am

Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Klaudandus » Mon Jul 23, 2012 9:55 am

The Element of Forum Hyperbole
Image
---
Flüttershy - Draenei Protection Paladin, Aerie Peak
Klaudandus - BE Protection Paladin, Feathermoon (Semi-retired)
User avatar
Klaudandus
 
Posts: 9379
Joined: Thu Apr 02, 2009 7:08 am
Location: Texas' Armpit


Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Sagara » Mon Jul 23, 2012 10:29 am



Classy move. I'll be the cynic saying it's probably not that important to Henson to lose Chik-fil-a, but at the very least, it's a statement.
When that day comes, seek all the light and wonder of this world, and fight.

Worldie wrote:I used to like it [mean] back on Sylvanas.

Queldan - EU Stormrage (H) - Good night, sweet prince.
User avatar
Sagara
 
Posts: 3272
Joined: Mon Jan 12, 2009 1:04 am
Location: Belgium

Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Shoju » Mon Jul 23, 2012 11:08 am

This will be my last post in this thread, since it appears that my presence only seems to derail the conversation.


I would respectfully disagree that this isn't about me Lieris. Just because I happen to be heterosexual makes this issue no less of an issue for me. It is also about poptart, and skye, and gab, and lev, and nika, and invis. It's about all of us. It is pretty easy to say that it isn't about us (meaning: Heterosexuals), because we are heterosexual, and this... 'particular' portion of human rights may not involve my lifestyle, but that doesn't mean that the next topic wont. It is about all of us, because like Treck said, it's about Human Rights. (props to you, the non native english speaker for making what I felt was a fantastic comment)

My personal feelings about the LGBT community don't matter, and I've tried to keep them out of the discussion. I have no problem with anyone who is gay. Some of my best friends in life have been gay. I didn't care. Being gay doesn't define them as a human being anymore than being hetero defines me as a human being, or that I'm half Mexican, or that Treck is European, and so on and so forth.

[anectdote you can skip if you want]
Hell, I had a roommate for a year shortly after I moved out of my parents house, and for 4 months, I had NO CLUE he was gay. It wasn't until I came home from work one day, and his boyfriend was over. It was humorous. The table had been hastily cleaned off, but obviously set for two. The couch had a blanket on it, and a couple of pillows. More than I had ever seen him sit / relax with. I thought "SWEET! He someone over! So I cleaned up a bit, and had to go to the bathroom. As I went down the hall, I saw some clothes. "Oh! Well, she looked a little "big" but, hey! Whatever!" I went in the bathroom to take a leak, and there were two pairs of Men's boxers on the floor. "oh.... It's a dude."

I was shocked, but not in a bad way. Suddenly, his behavior, and his secrecy, and his nondescript talks of plans made sense. He was nervous that I wouldn't approve. He knew my upbringing. So I tried to make the bathroom less... messy, and went back out, plopped on the couch, and watched the end of some baseball game.

When he emerged from his room later, he was embarrassed, and began to apologize. I told him to stop, I walked over, and gave him a hug, and I told him "If they make you happy, that's all I care about. Not whether the razor is for the legs, or the face."

And that was when I FULLY realized, that he was still my friend, he was still the same guy, he just didn't like women in the same way I did. Our friendship was better for me knowing. He died almost 3 years ago from Cancer, with the same man at his side. 11 years they spent together, the last few of them through some of the most terrible pain I have seen a human endure. I didn't care that they were gay. I cared that they loved each other, and that we could rationally, civilly, without getting angry have good talks about faith, and religion, and their desire to get married.
[End of Anecdote]

I don't write the anecdote to garner sympathy for my position of trying to defend poptart's words. I write it, to get you to understand MY POSITION. I don't care who you love. I don't care who you sleep with. Honeslty, I care more about the staggering divorce rate than I do about whether or not you are gay.

This is a very important topic for me. One that I feel everyone should care deeply about. It is a civil rights debate that is going on in more than just the USA, or a few other places. Like Treck said. This isn't about JUST LGBT rights. This is about Human rights. It is about the separation of rights from religion, and realizing that no matter what your religion, or faith, or lack of faith tells you, it is important that we are protecting everyone's rights.

That means both sides. I have defended poptart, because so few have. I defend him, because I understand where he is coming from. I understand that position very well. And I disagree with those people who feel his words were anything but civil. But in the interest of this being a rational talk, I'm bowing out. Too many people want to see me as Shoju "the problem" in this discussion. This isn't a discussion of WoW, or some other equally unimportant bullshit video game, or how I feel that Blizzard is bordering on jumping the shark with WoW. This is about You, me, and everyone else, trying to make a better world.

So in closing

I support gays rights to marry, or be joined in a civil union, or whatever you want to call it, so that their relationship is just as legally legitimate as a hetero marriage.

I support people of faith standing up for their religious beliefs, even when they know that it isn't a popular stance to take. I would be saddened if they didn't. It's a tough line to walk at times for those who claim to be a person of faith. If you speak out, you risk being condemned. If you don't speak out, you are condemned for not having the courage of your convictions.

I support both of these sides just as much as I support an artist's right to create a 'shocking' or 'thought provoking' painting, song, sculpture, or film. Even if I find it appalling, or revolting, or narrow minded, or whatever.

I feel this way, because I feel that everyone's rights should be protected, and I hope, that if the day ever came when my rights were being infringed upon, they would stand up and say "No. That's not right."
User avatar
Shoju
 
Posts: 5068
Joined: Mon May 19, 2008 7:15 am

Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Koatanga » Mon Jul 23, 2012 4:44 pm

I am also a hetero male. I am married and have a seven-year-old daughter.

I strongly support the right of same-sex couples to formalise their relationship in a way that is recognised by the law.

I strongly support people who have religious beliefs to be free to practice their religion.

I strongly feel that people should not impose their religion, or the teachings thereof, on people who do not believe in that religion, nor should they judge the behaviour of a person based on religious beliefs not held by that person.

Therefore, there is no debate on this issue for me. There is only one way that has any moral credibility, which is to support the rights of same-sex couples to have their relationship legally recognised.

Now here's the odd bit - I support the religious people's right to follow their own religion, so I support them blocking same-sex marriages from taking place in their churches, should they wish to block them. Hence, I think the "civil union" would be the way to go - provided civil union has the same legal rights and privileges of a marriage.
Un-Retired. Ish. Koatanga, Shapely, Sultry of Greenstone - Dath'Remar
Koatanga
 
Posts: 1671
Joined: Mon Nov 17, 2008 12:46 pm

Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Levantine » Mon Jul 23, 2012 4:53 pm

FWIW, I'm of the belief that the term 'marriage' should be stripped from the legal system entirely. Gays and straights should be involved in civil unions, and if you want to call it marriage then go get hitched in a church/mosque/synagogue after the fact to get it recognised by 'god', but it would have absolutely no additional legal standing. Easy as pie.
User avatar
Levantine
 
Posts: 7367
Joined: Fri Oct 26, 2007 6:48 pm
Location: NQ, Aus

Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Klaudandus » Mon Jul 23, 2012 5:27 pm

Koatanga wrote:I am also a hetero male. I am married and have a seven-year-old daughter.

I strongly support the right of same-sex couples to formalise their relationship in a way that is recognised by the law.

I strongly support people who have religious beliefs to be free to practice their religion.

I strongly feel that people should not impose their religion, or the teachings thereof, on people who do not believe in that religion, nor should they judge the behaviour of a person based on religious beliefs not held by that person.

Therefore, there is no debate on this issue for me. There is only one way that has any moral credibility, which is to support the rights of same-sex couples to have their relationship legally recognised.

Now here's the odd bit - I support the religious people's right to follow their own religion, so I support them blocking same-sex marriages from taking place in their churches, should they wish to block them. Hence, I think the "civil union" would be the way to go - provided civil union has the same legal rights and privileges of a marriage.


This is basically me, sans me being married and with a kid.
The Element of Forum Hyperbole
Image
---
Flüttershy - Draenei Protection Paladin, Aerie Peak
Klaudandus - BE Protection Paladin, Feathermoon (Semi-retired)
User avatar
Klaudandus
 
Posts: 9379
Joined: Thu Apr 02, 2009 7:08 am
Location: Texas' Armpit

PreviousNext

Return to Arkham Asylum

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest

Who is online

In total there is 1 user online :: 0 registered, 0 hidden and 1 guest (based on users active over the past 5 minutes)
Most users ever online was 380 on Tue Oct 14, 2008 6:28 pm

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest