LGBT rights discussion

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Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Fridmarr » Thu Feb 27, 2014 7:46 am

Koatanga wrote:
Amirya wrote:So. Uh. Satire.

There is no Carol Foyler in the Arizona State Legislature. In fact, there is no one named Carol, nor anyone named Foyler in either the Senate or the House.

She's only identified as "A Tea Party Republican", not a member of government. A quick Google search for her yields a lot of quotes - apparently she likes to talk a lot.
It definitely implies that she is a lawmaker who voted on and for the law. If she's not in the government then it's more than just a bit misleading.
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Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Fridmarr » Thu Feb 27, 2014 8:41 am

Nooska wrote:
Koatanga wrote:So Apple is cool doing business in China, but Arizona is crossing the line.


I think its more an issue of "Apple know it can actually influence policies in AZ, where they cannot in chine" (by chosing to do business or not)

It seems to be obviously about money if you look at it objectively.  There isn't big financial gains for setting up shop in AZ.  There's plenty of competition around the US if you want to keep things here. 

It's no big surprise that this became public as that just adds to the financial consideration of the move.  Whereas in China, the financial costs don't yet outweigh the moral costs, and Apple is happy to keep exploiting that.
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Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Klaudandus » Thu Feb 27, 2014 11:29 am

http://www.cnn.com/video/data/2.0/video ... y.cnn.html

Bill Donohue: "Marriage is not about love."
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Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Amirya » Thu Feb 27, 2014 11:38 am

If I'm remembering my social history right, romantic love is a fairly new concept in the grand scheme of human history - it used to be for economics and politics and social status. "It's easier to love a rich man as it is a poor man, blah blah blah." And religion only came along into it as a means of gaining followers - "well of course it's about <insert deity of choice>, because then it's blessed!" Which really meant, "we'll approve it for the sake of your offspring, because if they marry well/higher than they are/to someone with political power, then it will be good for us!"

As I recall, Charlemagne was a huge force behind Christianity first becoming widespread, and as I recall, the Church had nothing to say about his alleged refusal to allow his daughters to marry (political reasons), and he was A-OK with the grandchildren they gave him.

So maybe the Church came into the issue of wedlock children later? I dunno.

(I still await a logical answer to, "if marriage is for procreation, which is why gays should not be permitted to marry, then why are the infertile and the elderly permitted?")
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Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Klaudandus » Thu Feb 27, 2014 11:47 am

Well, yeah, the whole love as integral part of marriage is a rather new concept, but its the most prevalent concept as of recent on why people get married in the first place.

However, saying marriage is not about love as the reason why its ok to deny gays the right to marry is just another way to say gays should not worry because of tradition.
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Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Amirya » Thu Feb 27, 2014 11:56 am

It is, and it's a really stupid reason, too. I was commenting on the quote itself, since I can't view the video at work.

I still think that marriage, as an institution, should go the way of the dodo bird. If no one can marry, then no one can be upset about what same-sex spouses do.
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Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Nooska » Thu Feb 27, 2014 2:20 pm

Koatanga wrote:
Io.Draco wrote:There should be a basic IQ test for those wanting to become politicians.

Anyone who wants to become a politician should be barred from politics.

That would lead to anarchy (unless you believe in an absolutist technocracy of course).
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Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Sagara » Thu Feb 27, 2014 2:57 pm

Nooska wrote:
Koatanga wrote:
Io.Draco wrote:There should be a basic IQ test for those wanting to become politicians.

Anyone who wants to become a politician should be barred from politics.

That would lead to anarchy (unless you believe in an absolutist technocracy of course).


Ignoring the obvious tongue-in-cheek, I'd agree - it's usually those that have accepted to take command by being dragged kicking and screaming that make the absolute best leadership, provided they have enough decency to actually try their best. I remember reluctantly taking command a couple times, and those usually becoming my greatest successes.

But, sadly, those that WANT the power and that risk losing it fairly often make the second-best option, as they'll spend a good amount of time making sure they won't be kicked out, which usually implies doing some good work.
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Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Nooska » Fri Feb 28, 2014 4:30 am

Sagara wrote:
Nooska wrote:
Koatanga wrote:Anyone who wants to become a politician should be barred from politics.

That would lead to anarchy (unless you believe in an absolutist technocracy of course).


Ignoring the obvious tongue-in-cheek, I'd agree - it's usually those that have accepted to take command by being dragged kicking and screaming that make the absolute best leadership, provided they have enough decency to actually try their best. I remember reluctantly taking command a couple times, and those usually becoming my greatest successes.

But, sadly, those that WANT the power and that risk losing it fairly often make the second-best option, as they'll spend a good amount of time making sure they won't be kicked out, which usually implies doing some good work.

Oh, I agree with that.
But being a politician os so much more than wanting power.

I'll use myself as an example (so as not to walk into a strawman). I got invovled in my housing association because I was asked if I would come be part of the section board - mostly due to having brought written suggestions of change to teh suggestions there, I accepted and instead of becoming a supplementing member, I was asked from the crowd to make myself available for the actual board (I did, as I believe saying yse to being an alternate, means accepting that you need to step up if needed), and was elected to it. Everything we do in the housing association is politics, and most of the poeple in the section boards are there because they want to make a (to them) positive difference / change - yes there are those that want to sit in a chair (or at the head of the table) because they want the power - they are terrible at being there.
For partisan politics, I decided that I wanted to step up, I decided that I wanted to be a candidate for municipal elections, and I decided to apply to the partys national comittee for the politic areas I wanted to influence. Thats the opposite, but in partisan politics, you will hardly ever get asked to step up, too many people are wanting the chair for most people to go looking for someone that isn't clamoring, so you have to throw your name in the hat yourself if you want to be able to influence things.

There are certainly bad politicians, and certainly a lot of people are there for the power, but (at least in europe's multiparty systems) most of a prtys ideas and influence starts out from wanting to influence change (be it through evolution or revolution) - if you barred anyone from politics who wanted to influence change, we would have anarchy, or at least apathy (and de facto anarchy, as noone who wanted to set down lthe laws, or make sure "the trains run on time" would be allowed to get there - and with abar, many more people would want to get in, because noone was there.

(Again, excepting ideas like technocratic or meritocratic rule, where you don't get to rule based on ambition to rule, but you get to decide/influence areas that you have achieved merit - just be aware that doesn't prevent ambitious people, quite the opposite as in a meritocratic/technocratic rule, they would have a clear path to the top)
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Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Darielle » Fri Feb 28, 2014 9:05 am

Oh, I agree with that.
But being a politician os so much more than wanting power.


It depends if your mark of being a good politician is:
- getting things done
- making society a better place
- getting reelected

If a person as a politician would not be willing to end their political career, you have a problem.
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Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Nooska » Mon Mar 03, 2014 7:30 am

Darielle wrote:
Oh, I agree with that.
But being a politician os so much more than wanting power.


It depends if your mark of being a good politician is:
- getting things done
- making society a better place
- getting reelected

If a person as a politician would not be willing to end their political career, you have a problem.

Well, ideally all 3.
I would prioritise 2 over 1 over 3, but with the caveat that if you don't get reelected you don't get to change things anymore (which is one of the poblems being a 'good' politician).
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Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Klaudandus » Mon Mar 03, 2014 12:15 pm

Point: http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/02/opini ... .html?_r=0

CounterPoint: http://www.slate.com/blogs/outward/2014 ... acism.html


Best comment I've seen on Douthat's article: Conservatives don't seem to understand that having a bigoted belief is not excused simply because it's grounded in religion.
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Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Klaudandus » Mon Mar 03, 2014 6:29 pm

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Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Sagara » Mon Mar 03, 2014 11:51 pm

So, basically, they should have the right to discriminate, because they shouldn't be blamed because they discriminated?

Yaknow, sometimes I think you should take all those statements and replace "gay" and "lgbt" or what have you by the n-word. Nasty eye-opener if there ever was one.

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Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Klaudandus » Tue Mar 04, 2014 12:46 pm

I listened to a podcast about Loving v. Virginia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loving_v._Virginia

Its amazing how many of the arguments for prohibiting interracial marriage also apply to same-sex marriage.
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