LGBT rights discussion

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Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Kal » Mon Jan 06, 2014 2:52 pm

Klaudandus wrote:Boy, that escalated quickly.


Slippery slopes are exponential by nature.
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Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Koatanga » Mon Jan 06, 2014 6:44 pm

Yo Aussies - this guys is a gamer living in Australia who needs help to stay there instead of being deported to Pakistan where it's a crime to be gay.

He's been in a stable relationship for a long time and is a very nice guy. I've raided with him.

Please help him if it's in your conscience to do so.

http://www.communityrun.org/petitions/d ... i-choudhry
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Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Fridmarr » Mon Jan 06, 2014 7:18 pm

Kal wrote:While you're at it, calm down. Just because I said the word pedophile doesn't mean I think anyone here is one, or thinks anyone else is. I said it because that is what is implied by referencing child marriage. Context. I say that what you are arguing is echoing the talk of bigots, because they are saying very, very similar things. "Let Baptists marry Catholics? What's next, letting blacks marry whites? Marrying the same sex? A dog? A child? A house? A corporation?" Just read any Rick Santorum interview.
That's just hogwash, and for a couple of reasons and I totally get Nooska's response. Your comments are very inflammatory.

First, child marriage does not imply pedophilia. My thoughts were more along the lines of teenage kids wanting to get married or having been arranged. Of course I can see it both ways and my perception may be painted by having grown up around the amish...but one shouldn't consider it exclusively one way or the other.

Secondly, the argument itself doesn't pass the sniff test of having any real meaning. For instance, I have two young children, and I choose not to let them be babysat by a preteen. I am therefore discriminating against a group, judging members of the group (that they can't help being in) by a collective action or perception, not by individual actions. That sort of thought process, echos some of the worst bigotry mankind has seen, including homosexuals. Equating it with such things though, is really silly and simply can not be taken seriously.

Lastly, context. You keep saying it, but you keep missing. Nooska isn't saying "gee well if you let them there gays get married, we might as well let grown ups marry kids"

The conversation, which I understand you are a late entry too, has progressed. It started talking about gay marriage and the notion that two consenting people should be allowed to marry who they want. To the notion of why limit it to two consenting people, why not allow more than two or groups? To the idea that we don't really have a particularly good notion at which point someone is able to consent. That last notion is how children got into the conversation, and Nooska also noted that such a declaration would make them not children in a sense. I think twisting that conversation into a link back to gay marriage as some sort of bigoted excuse to cloud the issue, is a seriously crazy leap if not downright irresponsible.

I suppose you could debate the notion of age being inadequate for determining the ability for one to consent to something, but lets not hang up silly straw men.
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Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Koatanga » Mon Jan 06, 2014 7:43 pm

I'd say spouse and family benefits provided by corporations are the primary roadblock for polygamy. Picture a corporation being asked to provide health coverage for 20 wives and assorted children. It would exceed the salary of the employee.
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Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Fridmarr » Mon Jan 06, 2014 8:22 pm

That's minor. As it is, many (if not the vast majority of) companies pass on more and more of the health insurance costs to the employee based on family size. There might need to be some adjusting, but it's trivial for companies to do.
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Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Nooska » Tue Jan 07, 2014 7:59 am

Health care is the probelm? just adopt a scanidnavian healthcare model *coughcoughsaidthesocialistcoughcough*

In regards to teh other discussion, I'm going to let it lie - I was not upset though, just wanted to be very clear about what I sad and implied (as I do know, and recognize those accusations or implications ofetn show up, and as I said, I'm a politiian, so I don't want anything like that to be left hanging).
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Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby fuzzygeek » Tue Jan 07, 2014 2:28 pm

Socialism works just fine for certain group sizes. I think a large number of the failings of American systems are caused by the application of well-meaning solutions that just don't scale.
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Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Klaudandus » Tue Jan 07, 2014 2:35 pm

Like our base damage.
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Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Kal » Tue Jan 07, 2014 4:23 pm

In regards to "teh discussion" :wink: , I'm more than willing to let it lie as well. We obviously agree on the important matter of consent, and I'm not upset either. I think we were talking cross-purposes. There sure are a lot of tangents on this thread, and perhaps I should have let that particular one go, especially since it seems to have run it's course before I even stepped in. You have my apologies.

I like tangents, though, and it's no surprise to me that religion and politics both tend to get involved in this issue.

On the matter of religion, it's often framed as the bogeyman for LGTB rights, but I think that's an unfortunate cognitive bias caused by the outright noisiness of the Ted Haggert types. It was actually a culture shock for me when I grew up and met people who called themselves Christian, but didn't hate gay people. It was even more surprising (though pleasantly so) to find these Christians seem to be the majority. I'm still an anti-theist, but I don't hate Christians that don't hate me.

As for politics, that seems to be the new tangent. Oh goodie, I love socialism! Seriously, America loves socialism. We can't get by without it.

@fuzzygeek, can you specify which socialist solutions are not scaling? Social Security, Medicare, and Medicaid seem like the typical culprits, but I don't see how they scale poorly. Do you mean Obamacare? I have some criticisms of that myself.
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Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby fuzzygeek » Tue Jan 07, 2014 4:29 pm

The politics thread is in another castle; let's not derail this thread any more :D
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Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Kal » Tue Jan 07, 2014 6:37 pm

Point taken. How about some good news to clear the air?

"Gay Brisbane man Ali Choudhry given temporary halt on deportation as tribunal hears case"
http://mobile.abc.net.au/news/2014-01-07/petition-opposing-gay-mans-deportation-garners-120000-signatures/5188784

Saw this in my FB feed from George Takei.

P.S. Are they not such a cute couple?
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Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Koatanga » Tue Jan 07, 2014 7:43 pm

Kal wrote:Point taken. How about some good news to clear the air?

"Gay Brisbane man Ali Choudhry given temporary halt on deportation as tribunal hears case"
http://mobile.abc.net.au/news/2014-01-07/petition-opposing-gay-mans-deportation-garners-120000-signatures/5188784

Saw this in my FB feed from George Takei.

P.S. Are they not such a cute couple?


Ali's a nice guy and a good WoW player. I raided Ice Crown with him a few times when Wrath was all the rage.
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Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Klaudandus » Thu Jan 16, 2014 4:13 pm

http://www.cbsatlanta.com/story/2446266 ... -for-sochi

Hey dumbass italian coot, how bout fuck you instead.
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Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Klaudandus » Sat Jan 18, 2014 5:47 am

http://www.kmsstv.com/news/fairness-ordinance-stays

But none were quite as bold as Pamela Raintree, a transgender woman. Raintree called out the Bible-quoting councilman, daring him to stone her to death.

"Leviticus 20:13 states, 'If a man also lie with mankind as he lieth with a woman, they shall surely put him to death,'" Raintree began. "I brought the first stone, Mr. Webb, in case that your Bible talk isn't just a smoke screen for personal prejudices."

Webb withdrew his repeal measure just minutes later, without calling for a vote.


OH SNAP.
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Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Skye1013 » Sat Jan 18, 2014 6:44 am

^That is just beyond awesome.
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Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Koatanga » Sun Jan 19, 2014 10:37 am

Not to be outdone by Republicans and Russians, the UK enters the idiocy parade:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-oxfordshire-25793358
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Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Koatanga » Tue Jan 21, 2014 12:27 pm

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Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Klaudandus » Mon Feb 10, 2014 6:32 am

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Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby KysenMurrin » Mon Feb 10, 2014 7:11 am

The wording's general enough ("sex or gender") that it seems like the bill would protect discrimination against women, too, which I'm pretty sure would contradict existing laws.
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Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Koatanga » Mon Feb 10, 2014 12:42 pm

Where would the federal government fall in this? Is it atheistic (separation of church and state) or agnostic? I imagine if the argument was made that the separation means the Fed is atheistic, it could withhold services to anyone of any religion, such as in the matters of farm subsidies and disaster relief.
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Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Kal » Mon Feb 10, 2014 1:27 pm

Separation of church and state is secularism, not atheism. You can only have true religious freedom under a secular government. Promotion of any religion, or of non-religion, is not secularism.

Gov. Brownback's problem is that his "religious liberty" is not protected by the Constitution. He and all his religious friends are free to not believe gay marriage is moral, but they are not free to discriminate against it.
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Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Amirya » Mon Feb 10, 2014 6:28 pm

Am I wrong for getting the feeling that this is backlash against the lesbian couple who had children conceived with the help of a man from Craigslist, who is now being sued by the State for child support when all three parties (both mothers and the donor) agreed he was not a parent?
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Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Klaudandus » Mon Feb 10, 2014 6:49 pm

Amirya wrote:Am I wrong for getting the feeling that this is backlash against the lesbian couple who had children conceived with the help of a man from Craigslist, who is now being sued by the State for child support when all three parties (both mothers and the donor) agreed he was not a parent?


Nope. It smells of a giant "FUCK YOU"
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Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Amirya » Mon Feb 10, 2014 6:53 pm

That's what I thought.

And while I do believe that those three should have investigated the legality of that sort of donation, I also understand that both mothers are supporting the donor's efforts to get that dismissed/appealed - I believe the partner of the biological mother is wanting the State to go after her for the child support, instead of the donor.

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Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Koatanga » Mon Feb 10, 2014 7:48 pm

Kal wrote:Separation of church and state is secularism, not atheism. You can only have true religious freedom under a secular government. Promotion of any religion, or of non-religion, is not secularism.

Gov. Brownback's problem is that his "religious liberty" is not protected by the Constitution. He and all his religious friends are free to not believe gay marriage is moral, but they are not free to discriminate against it.

Strictly going by constitutionality, Brownback is guaranteed the freedom to practice his religion, and I don't recall any amendment preventing discrimination on the basis of sexual preference. Gender yes; preference, no.
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