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LGBT rights discussion

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Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby fuzzygeek » Sun Dec 08, 2013 8:34 am

Klaudandus wrote:Pretty much exactly what I've been thinking all along.


I swear I had another half to the post that either got accidentally deleted, or I never actually wrote and just thought I did.

I thought I originally expanded upon the first thought -- gov't forcing private enterprise to do business is weird at first blush, but anti-discrimination laws are a thing.

Ultimately I think the precedent the judge sets is better than the alternative. It's an interesting twinge, when government edict trumps classical liberalism.

Also the more I think about it the less I think the Baker has a leg to stand on, theologically. It's not like Christianity has an analog to haram.
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Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Klaudandus » Sun Dec 08, 2013 9:45 am

I know its the better alternative, but at the same time, I feel like such laws should be made at a federal level, than at a county level -- although its not uncommon for some more liberal counties/cities to have non-discrimination statutes based on sexual orientation.

Truth be told, this case gives me a bunch of mixed feelings.

But I'd not want to eat something prepared by someone who hates my guts.
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Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Nooska » Mon Dec 09, 2013 3:17 am

Klaudandus wrote:But I'd not want to eat something prepared by someone who hates my guts.

^This, so much, this.
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Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Amirya » Tue Dec 10, 2013 4:21 pm

Klaudandus wrote:
Amirya wrote:LOL Sorry.

/slinks off


NOT YOU! Those in the lawsuit!

Lawsuit fails, Klaud.
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Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Klaudandus » Tue Dec 10, 2013 4:31 pm

Amirya wrote:Lawsuit fails, Klaud.


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Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Amirya » Tue Dec 10, 2013 4:50 pm

For now. They're promising to appeal it, but at least this is a good first step.
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Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Skye1013 » Wed Dec 11, 2013 4:44 am

My thoughts on people marrying animals...

If the animal has a proveable IQ level equivalent to whatever limits are currently set in place in order to give consent... and they give it... have at.

This does bring up a question though... obviously marrying children is out of the question... but are there any laws restricting the marriages of mentally handicapped people who have the body of an adult, but the mental acuity of a child? If so... that would be where I'd start the line for marrying animals.
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Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Nooska » Wed Dec 11, 2013 5:26 am

Marriage laws obviously differ a lot across countries, but I've yet to hear of any countries that restrict marriage on base of IQ or other cognitive tests specifically.

Around here these are the criteria;

1) You need to be 2 persons of opposite genders, or of the same gender
2) Persons under the age of 18, that are not previously married, cannot enter into marriags without the consent of their parents (guardians), with a caveats about only one parent beeing needed under circumstances that make it difficult to get the consenc of the other
3) you cannot be a ward of the state (as in, having been considered legally unable to take care of yourself - this is an reverse competency requirement)
4) you cannot marry a relative in direct ascending or descending line, or a sibling
5) you cannot have/be adopted by the one you wish to marry, as long as the adopted relationship exists (so you can have it voided, then marry)
6) you cannot enter into a new marriage/partnership(holdover) as long as you are currently married/in a registered partnership

There is a further clause to the age requirement, that theyc annot enter into marriage without the consent of the approving authority, and that the approving authority can stipulate that the person under 18 years of age would still be considered a minor, despite being allowed to enter into marriage - this is a thing, because the law on being fully legally competent (the Law of Guardianship), wherein it is stated that Children and young under the age of 18, that have not entered into marriages, are minors, and therefore not legally competent (and goes on to list what requires legal competence, like entering into contracts, and managing their wealth)
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Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Skye1013 » Wed Dec 11, 2013 6:00 am

Nooska wrote:There is a further clause to the age requirement, that theyc annot enter into marriage without the consent of the approving authority, and that the approving authority can stipulate that the person under 18 years of age would still be considered a minor, despite being allowed to enter into marriage - this is a thing, because the law on being fully legally competent (the Law of Guardianship), wherein it is stated that Children and young under the age of 18, that have not entered into marriages, are minors, and therefore not legally competent (and goes on to list what requires legal competence, like entering into contracts, and managing their wealth)

This is where I get confused... because people with Down's Syndrome or similar, typically have the mental demeanor of a child even beyond the age of 18. Can they legally get married on their own or do they require a guardian to "sign off" on it, as if they were a child? Is the only stipulation "they are chronologically 18 years old, so therefore are capable of deciding for themself if they want to get married."

Edit: In essence, if my final statement is true... then the only reason it's illegal to marry a minor is because they aren't 18 and has nothing to do with competency.
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Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Ironshield » Wed Dec 11, 2013 7:29 am

The problem with any kind of competency test is: who decides? An age limit is pretty easy to use in most cases (it's rare that someone's age is unverifiable or fairly obvious). Whereas what ever 'test' you decide to implement would almost certainly be failed by people who are happily married now.

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Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby fuzzygeek » Wed Dec 11, 2013 7:38 am

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-india-25329065

India top court reinstates gay sex ban

According to Section 377, a 153-year-old colonial law, a same-sex relationship is an "unnatural offence" and punishable by a 10-year jail term.


I blame the British.
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Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Nooska » Wed Dec 11, 2013 12:45 pm

Skye1013 wrote:
Nooska wrote:There is a further clause to the age requirement, that theyc annot enter into marriage without the consent of the approving authority, and that the approving authority can stipulate that the person under 18 years of age would still be considered a minor, despite being allowed to enter into marriage - this is a thing, because the law on being fully legally competent (the Law of Guardianship), wherein it is stated that Children and young under the age of 18, that have not entered into marriages, are minors, and therefore not legally competent (and goes on to list what requires legal competence, like entering into contracts, and managing their wealth)

This is where I get confused... because people with Down's Syndrome or similar, typically have the mental demeanor of a child even beyond the age of 18. Can they legally get married on their own or do they require a guardian to "sign off" on it, as if they were a child? Is the only stipulation "they are chronologically 18 years old, so therefore are capable of deciding for themself if they want to get married."

Edit: In essence, if my final statement is true... then the only reason it's illegal to marry a minor is because they aren't 18 and has nothing to do with competency.


You are correct, but not quite.
There is that reverse competency check. Under the law of guardianship, your legal competency can be restricted or taken away, based on an individual evaluation of whether you are competent. It is not used extensively (and in my opinion too seldomly - being an election monitor the last two elections, if a person shows up and cannot place the mark themselves, and cannot un-ambigously say who/what party they want to vote for because they have no language - how can they be legally competent to enter into contracts etc for themselves? (I know they can do so, because if they had been put under guardianship, they would have lost the right to vote unde rthe same competency criteria).

Though the discussion is, in actuality, identical (not just the same) in regards to voting rights. You cannot have a general voting right and then require a competency test - uit has to be objective, and you cannot disenfranchise a block of people (be that from voting or marrying) because of a diagnosis.
In danish law competency checks are reversed, so that it is assumed you are competent, untill thourough review (and possibly trial through the supreme court in the end case scenario, or the ECHR) has determined you are not competent.

So, no, the only basis is chronological age (and the other requirements - there is also something about non-citizens, which, I guess, i based on citizens being known in the system, so non-citizens require further scrutiny, I can't remember off the top of my head (I had the law open during my earlier reply).)
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Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Koatanga » Wed Dec 11, 2013 7:03 pm

In many places, people under the age of 18 are not allowed to enter into a legally binding contract, which marriage is, either altogether or without the consent of a parent or legal guardian. It would be consistent with that not to allow minors to marry.
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Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Nooska » Thu Dec 12, 2013 5:22 am

Agreed.

Marriage is a legal contract that brings with its some rights and priveledges in regards to society.
Requiring the (arbitrarily decided) age of majority is a default.

As for living together in a loving partnership, be that 2 people of opposing gender, 2 people of the same gender, 3 or more people of the same or varying genders does not require a legal contract (and thus does not require age of majority, as such*).

Most places you can even live together in a 'loving partnership' with your chosen animal (though most likely in secret) (just to finish that part off, since some of this was from a suit to grant chimps the rights of a legal person - or at least thats how I remember it while typing)


* - there might be guardians that can interfere or laws in regards to when you can enter into a non-platonic relationship, but most places the laws will not be the sticking point if the persons concerned are of equal age. Age of consent is mostly a legal protection for those below it from those that would or could take advantage of the diminished capacities due to immaturity - I have yet to hear of a country (in the west) that actively prosecutes teens for having sexual relations when of equal age (even if below the age of consent)
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Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Klaudandus » Thu Dec 12, 2013 5:43 am

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