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LGBT rights discussion

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Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Klaudandus » Fri Jul 20, 2012 7:26 pm

Nikachelle wrote:I think calling gay people the same thing as murderers, adulterers and thiefs is far worse than name calling.


i agree, but just because he went with the lowest common denominator doesnt mean i have to lower myself when i push forward a counter argument.
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Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Skye1013 » Fri Jul 20, 2012 7:47 pm

According to what people believe of the Bible, homosexuality is a sin. Murder, adultery, theft, etc. are also sins. Sins don't have tiers... you're either sinful or you aren't. In THAT context, they are equivalent. Outside of a biblical context though, it is harsh.
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Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Klaudandus » Fri Jul 20, 2012 7:59 pm

I think the funny part is that the reason why I'm so open minded is that my zeyde was really openminded for being a jew.

He married a goyim, didn't force anyone in the family to follow his religion, and while still a practicing jew, he always felt that if you lived a honorable life but were sent to hell because you ate shrimp, against the laws of the torah, then yahweh was kinda petty.

I think my poor zeyde is spinning in his grave that my uncle is a complete batshit insane SBC pastor that preaches about "bombing iran in the name of jesus", I guess in part because he hangs around with a lot of messianic jews
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Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby halabar » Fri Jul 20, 2012 9:54 pm

Skye1013 wrote:According to what people believe of the Bible, homosexuality is a sin. Murder, adultery, theft, etc. are also sins. Sins don't have tiers... you're either sinful or you aren't. In THAT context, they are equivalent. Outside of a biblical context though, it is harsh.


Spot on.

The thing is, most miss the point that Skye sees. The REAL point of Christianity here is that we are ALL sinners in some way, and need God's grace and mercy. The central idea is you can't look down on someone else because they are a worse sinner than you. Sinner is sinner. THAT is the key of the Christian faith. You can dismiss it, mock it, spew vile at it, but that's the core of the faith.
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Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Amirya » Sat Jul 21, 2012 12:01 am

halabar wrote:The REAL point of Christianity here is that we are ALL sinners in some way, and need God's grace and mercy.

Speak for yourself. I'm perfect in every way that counts.

:wink:
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Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby bldavis » Sat Jul 21, 2012 12:06 am

halabar wrote:
Skye1013 wrote:According to what people believe of the Bible, homosexuality is a sin. Murder, adultery, theft, etc. are also sins. Sins don't have tiers... you're either sinful or you aren't. In THAT context, they are equivalent. Outside of a biblical context though, it is harsh.


Spot on.

The thing is, most miss the point that Skye sees. The REAL point of Christianity here is that we are ALL sinners in some way, and need God's grace and mercy. The central idea is you can't look down on someone else because they are a worse sinner than you. Sinner is sinner. THAT is the key of the Christian faith. You can dismiss it, mock it, spew vile at it, but that's the core of the faith.

this is exactly it
the whole point of (well at least mormon) proselyting is to reach out to those that are worse sinners and bring them to god so they may find forgiveness for thier sins and become better people

not dam them in the name of christ

wtb the jesus pic from the frustrations thread that i think invis posted

Amirya wrote:
halabar wrote:The REAL point of Christianity here is that we are ALL sinners in some way, and need God's grace and mercy.

Speak for yourself. I'm perfect in every way that counts.

:wink:

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Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Koatanga » Sat Jul 21, 2012 3:56 am

Skye1013 wrote:According to what people believe of the Bible, homosexuality is a sin. Murder, adultery, theft, etc. are also sins. Sins don't have tiers... you're either sinful or you aren't. In THAT context, they are equivalent. Outside of a biblical context though, it is harsh.

Working on the Sabbath is a sin, but people do that all the time and there are no laws to prevent it. Eating certain foods is a sin, but again it's ignored and considered just fine. There are myriad sins in the Bible that are common events today and nobody has a problem with it.

Shaving is a sin.
Touching the skin of a pig is a sin.
Getting a tattoo is a sin.
Disobeying your parents is a sin.
It is a sin for a woman who is raped not to marry her rapist.

Birth control is a sin. Same-sex relationship is a sin. Know why those have survived as sins even though it's OK to touch pigs and get tattoos? Because if you have a same-sex relationship or use birth control, you won't be spewing out tons of babies who will be brought up as believers who will spread the word around.

Touching a pig doesn't hurt the church. Not having offspring to spread the word hurts the church.

That's why homosexuality survived as a sin all these years, and it's the only reason why.

People pick and choose which of god's laws they find convenient to follow, and then strut around proclaiming them and absolute, which is the height of absurdity. On the subject of gay marriage, I don't think absurdity should have any influence.
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Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Shoju » Sat Jul 21, 2012 4:53 am

Koatanga wrote:
Working on the Sabbath is a sin, but people do that all the time and there are no laws to prevent it. Eating certain foods is a sin, but again it's ignored and considered just fine. There are myriad sins in the Bible that are common events today and nobody has a problem with it.

Shaving is a sin.
Touching the skin of a pig is a sin.
Getting a tattoo is a sin.
Disobeying your parents is a sin.
It is a sin for a woman who is raped not to marry her rapist.

Birth control is a sin. Same-sex relationship is a sin. Know why those have survived as sins even though it's OK to touch pigs and get tattoos? Because if you have a same-sex relationship or use birth control, you won't be spewing out tons of babies who will be brought up as believers who will spread the word around.

Touching a pig doesn't hurt the church. Not having offspring to spread the word hurts the church.

That's why homosexuality survived as a sin all these years, and it's the only reason why.

People pick and choose which of god's laws they find convenient to follow, and then strut around proclaiming them and absolute, which is the height of absurdity. On the subject of gay marriage, I don't think absurdity should have any influence.


This is the problem. You have taken all of those things out of context, and aren't looking at things in historical context. I already touched on this before, and I guess I will say it again.

Shaving wasn't a sin, it was against the law. There were multiple reasons for this, but we'll take it down to the common denominator. It was against the law, because wandering around in the wilderness so many thousands of years ago, didn't offer people the ability to have great shaving utensils, and in response doing so, could leave to you being injured, cutting your major arteries, and you could fucking die. It was also a way to distinguish those of the faith from those other cultures of the time that weren't believers.

Getting a tattoo was NEVER a sin. That is quite possibly one of the two most misquoted, taken out of context portions of the bible EVER It says that you aren't to mark yourself in rememberence of the dead. This is, (as I've posted before) not tattooing, this is in reference to another culture that would cut, burn, disfigure, or even MAIM themselves after the death of someone.

Touching the skin of a pig, and consuming a pig, WAS FOR PRACTICAL REASONS. Because they didn't have the ability to treat, cure, cook, the food in such a way that would prevent the skin from rotting, and the meat for going bad, or being fully cooked. It was a Law because YOU COULD FUCKING DIE.

And then here comes the most important part, that non believers don't know, and that believers over look.


Leviticus' laws don't matter anymore. And the bible itself tells you that.

Paul says in Hebrews (a letter written to the church leaders of the Hewbrew followers), that anyone still living under the law, is living under a curse. The birth, and death of Christ created a new Covenant between man and god.

It is the reason that a lot of things changed at that point. It is also the reason that I have multiple, serious, problems with behavior of the a lot of organized churches, Catholic, Lutheran, Methodist, Baptist, Pentocostal, you name it.

They have apparently forgotten (or choose to ignore when needed) that The New Testament created the new covenant between man and god, and things like Penance, Confession, and Eternal Salvation are outdated concepts of Faith in "God the Christian" god.



Gab wrote:
Shoju wrote:And as we have seen from several members here, Gays are right, and anyone who follows religion is some sort of mouth breathing idiot worthy of scathing criticism.


SMH...

Edit: Spelling and We must have been reading different threads, because there was nothing even remotely close to that kind of a statement made.


No, you just don't want to admit it.

Lieris wrote:I can't stand religious people like you who try to make out that they do not hate gay people all the while calling their relationships a sin and being against equal rights. We do not believe you, we know you are a hateful nasty human being hiding behind religion to justify your prejudices and that platitudes like "love the sinner" are as fake as they are demeaning.


I'll just post this one, because I'm not trying to call people out and start a fight here. I'm trying to rationally discuss it, and everyone else touched on the rest of your post so I don't need to either.

There are multiple other posts in the discussion while in the post your frustrations thread that refer to christian people as wrong, crazy, the problem.






Nikachelle wrote:I think calling gay people the same thing as murderers, adulterers and thiefs is far worse than name calling.


The point Nika, is that in religion, there is no difference in the degree of sin as others have pointed out. Lying, being gay, murdering, stealing, being disrespectful, having an affair, taking the lord's name in vain, it's all the same. It is all sin.

Is it rough? Sure, maybe. But It is the belief system. Take it or leave it. The problem is that the Old Testament is the History lesson, and the New Testament is the laws, and covenant, and a lot of people forget that.
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Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Klaudandus » Sat Jul 21, 2012 4:59 am

Here
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Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Gab » Sat Jul 21, 2012 5:08 am

halabar wrote:The thing is, most miss the point that Skye sees. The REAL point of Christianity here is that we are ALL sinners in some way, and need God's grace and mercy. The central idea is you can't look down on someone else because they are a worse sinner than you. Sinner is sinner. THAT is the key of the Christian faith. You can dismiss it, mock it, spew vile at it, but that's the core of the faith.


I can appreciate that is the key of Christianity. The thing that bothers me, other than the picking and choosing of "laws" that are followed, is that some of these religious groups are fine with all sinners having the same rights except for gays. And that they actively try to keep gays from having those rights. If all sins are equal in the eyes of your God than why should gays still be treated as if they are inhuman?

And it's mighty large stretch to say Lieris' post comes even close to such an absolute statement as EVERYONE who follows religion is a "mouth breathing idiot". Maybe that was just an extreme flair for the dramatic, but again nothing even remotely close to that came out of the frustrations.... "discussion".

I will say this though, and this is my opinion, anyone who says love the sinner hate the sin but is against gay rights IS a "mouth breathing idiot".

I'm with Marcus, why do we need some ancient book, which is continuously misinterpreted and is no longer even the word of "God" because it has been bastardized so many times by the men who have translated or edited it, to tell us whether we are good or not and how we should live our lives?

Edit: The bible could have read "any man who does not lie with another man is an abomination" we don't know and there is no way to know. Christians are living off the idea that this book is God's words but it's not, it's the men who got their hands on it's words.
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Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Lieris » Sat Jul 21, 2012 5:48 am

I specifically said "I can't stand religious people like you who". *It was not a blanket statement about all religious people* (not sure if you have noticed but there are an increasing number of christian congregations that accept gay people and their relationships FULLY) just those who expect gay people to be tolerant of their hateful views and attempt hollow platitudes like that love the sinner rubbish. I have experienced first hand how disingenuous and hurtful such statements are so don't expect me to swallow that garbage, I am not that naive.

This topic has derailed into being a theology discussion and I would appreciate it if went back to being on topic.
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Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby bldavis » Sat Jul 21, 2012 6:15 am

Shoju wrote:Getting a tattoo was NEVER a sin. That is quite possibly one of the two most misquoted, taken out of context portions of the bible EVER It says that you aren't to mark yourself in rememberence of the dead. This is, (as I've posted before) not tattooing, this is in reference to another culture that would cut, burn, disfigure, or even MAIM themselves after the death of someone.

this also depends on the sect of christianity, as according to the LDS word of wisdom, any markings or bodily modifications are deemed a sin basically (i dont remember the exact wording now after a near decade out of the church, but that is basically it)
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no decorative scarring, and no implants or such (yes according to my plastic surgeon bishop, breast implants were included...you think of weird things as a teenage mormon boy)
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Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Shoju » Sat Jul 21, 2012 6:16 am

Lieris wrote:I specifically said "I can't stand religious people like you who". *It was not a blanket statement about all religious people* (not sure if you have noticed but there are an increasing number of christian congregations that accept gay people and their relationships FULLY) just those who expect gay people to be tolerant of their hateful views and attempt hollow platitudes like that love the sinner rubbish. I have experienced first hand how disingenuous and hurtful such statements are so don't expect me to swallow that garbage, I am not that naive.

This topic has derailed into being a theology discussion and I would appreciate it if went back to being on topic.


You do realize that the statement

"I can't stand religious people like you who"

Doesn't necessarily drive home the point that you are specifically speaking about "people like poptart" instead of "religious people" (which poptart is) as a whole, and that doesn't change the fact that it was an inflammatory statement, that supports my point.

You, Lev, and others made disparaging remarks about people who live and follow religion. I was simply pointing out that it works both ways. If there is ever going to be even a semblance of LGBT rights in the world, it's only going to come when both sides are capable of not hurling insults at the other side, at least in a "grand scheme of things" type of setting.

There has to be a respect to let people believe what they want to believe without having to insult their ideologies.


@BLDavis

I was specificially speaking of Leviticus, not specific / relgious / church / denomination doctrine.
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Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Klaudandus » Sat Jul 21, 2012 6:22 am

because we're straying from the main point

Here
http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0712/78776.html
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Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby bldavis » Sat Jul 21, 2012 6:26 am

Shoju wrote:@BLDavis

I was specificially speaking of Leviticus, not specific / relgious / church / denomination doctrine.

yeah i know

i was just pointing out that while Lev it might not say anything, but in modern society, it can be made to say w/e someone wants it to
just like the rest of the bible

hell just like our constitution, and it is only what 240 yrs old?
hell of a lot younger then even the most recent addition to the bible (and not translated as much)
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