LGBT rights discussion

Invisusira's playground

Moderators: Aergis, Invisusira

Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Nikachelle » Fri Aug 17, 2012 3:37 am

They're incredibly brave to do that. It makes me smile that they had the courage but it also makes me sad that this is still a problem in certain countries (even in supposedly well developed ones!).
User avatar
Nikachelle
Maintankadonor
 
Posts: 8406
Joined: Mon Mar 23, 2009 10:39 am
Location: Toronto, Canada

Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Shoju » Fri Aug 17, 2012 10:12 am

Koatanga wrote:Jesus pretty much crushed Leviticus, and didn't have much to say about homosexuality. I think pretty much every new testament reference to homosexuality is through Paul, who had quite a few ideas that aren't doctrine today.

Like with Leviticus, it comes down to people picking and choosing which things they are going to follow.

However...

"It's not about making sense. It's about believing in something, and letting that belief be real enough to change your life. It's about faith. You don't fix faith, River. It fixes you."



I have stayed away from this thread for a long time, but I just wanted to pop in and say two things.

1.) That quote from Firefly is amazing I love it. When he said that, it really connected with my disjointed belief system.

2.) Even Paul crushed Leviticus, stating the "Curse of the Law" in the new testament. (I thought it was in Hebrews that he expounded upon it, but my google fu is failing at finding that, but I'm finding the other part, in Galations. Basically, if you were still living under the old Law, and not under the Law of Christ, you were cursed.

We also need to remember that a lot of these things that Paul wrote need to be given historical context, as well as cultural context. Times and customs were a lot different 2000 years ago, and the laws of the land have changed with it. Some of Paul's writings have been "theorized" to also include teachings about the more civilized laws of the time, in writing to places that were not only in his eyes "godless", or on the cusp of "new christian movement", but also on the fringes of society, where laws, and culture were different. Some theorize that his writings were also with intent to bring these areas "ahead" in terms of Laws, customs, and culture, as well as "ahead" in terms of faith, love, and closeness to God.

Some of what I have just written here, isn't "popular" theology, because theologists claim that it makes it sound as though Paul was trying to "secularize" regions, and that Paul was avidly against that, which in some case is true. In other cases, it is claimed that he felt the culture needed to be improved, and "brought out of the dark" so to speak.

I personally think that he was not just trying to bring people to god, but that he was trying to give them culture, and faith at the same time. I'm not saying that women being subservient is right, I'm saying that it was a part of the prevailing culture at the time. Things change with the times, and I think that a lot of what was written, and then included in the bible needs a good bit of historical context along with it. Something that you don't get in a normal bible. You would need an expanded bible that contains this information (I've never seen a whole bible done this way, but I own a few books like this for specific books of the bible) to readily understand all of the information.
User avatar
Shoju
 
Posts: 5069
Joined: Mon May 19, 2008 7:15 am

Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Klaudandus » Wed Aug 22, 2012 8:35 pm

Image
The Element of Forum Hyperbole
Image
---
Flüttershy - Draenei Protection Paladin, Aerie Peak
Klaudandus - BE Protection Paladin, Feathermoon (Semi-retired)
User avatar
Klaudandus
 
Posts: 9505
Joined: Thu Apr 02, 2009 7:08 am
Location: Texas' Armpit

Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Skye1013 » Wed Aug 22, 2012 8:49 pm

Hugh Hefner wrote:The fight for gay marriage is, in reality, a fight for all of our rights. Without it, we will turn back the sexual revolution and return to an earlier, puritanical time. Today, in every instance of sexual rights falling under attack, you’ll find legislation forced into place by people who practice discrimination disguised as religious freedom. Their goal is to dehumanize everyone’s sexuality and reduce us to using sex for the sole purpose of perpetuating our species. To that end, they will criminalize your entire sex life...This is a religious nation, but it is also a secular one. … No one should have to subjugate their religious freedom, and no one should have their personal freedoms infringed. This is America and we must protect the rights of all Americans.
"me no gay, me friends gay, me no like you call me gay, you dumb dumb" -bldavis
"Here are the values that I stand for: I stand for honesty, equality, kindness, compassion, treating people the way you wanna be treated, and helping those in need. To me, those are traditional values. That’s what I stand for." -Ellen Degeneres
"I'm not going to censor myself to comfort your ignorance." -Jon Stewart
Horde: Clopin Dylon Sharkbait Xiaman Metria Metapriest
Alliance: Schatze Aleks Deegee Baileyi Sotanaht Danfer Shazta Rawrsalot Roobyroo
User avatar
Skye1013
Maintankadonor
 
Posts: 3588
Joined: Tue May 18, 2010 5:47 am
Location: JBPH-Hickam, Hawaii

Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Shoju » Thu Aug 23, 2012 10:25 am

@Klaud.

The picture had me, and then I realized they don't even know how to spell bigots.

The internet, lacking proof reading skills since 1993.
User avatar
Shoju
 
Posts: 5069
Joined: Mon May 19, 2008 7:15 am

Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Fridmarr » Thu Aug 23, 2012 4:52 pm

Shoju wrote:@Klaud.

The picture had me, and then I realized they don't even know how to spell bigots.

The internet, lacking proof reading skills since 1993.

Well I don't know, it's a bit hypocritical and doing some framing of its own. Are the phrases "under God" and "in God we trust", which don't endorse any specific religion, really what people typically consider as extreme?

I will say though, the whole framing of the other side is very problematic. It's standard operating procedure for ALL of the major media outlets though. I've gotten so frustrated with them, I try to avoid as much as possible.
Fridmarr
Global Mod
 
Posts: 6465
Joined: Sun Apr 08, 2007 1:03 am

Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Klaudandus » Mon Aug 27, 2012 11:16 am

And this is why I want churches taxed if they keep trying to intervene on how the government works
http://blog.seattlepi.com/seattlepoliti ... rendum-74/
The Element of Forum Hyperbole
Image
---
Flüttershy - Draenei Protection Paladin, Aerie Peak
Klaudandus - BE Protection Paladin, Feathermoon (Semi-retired)
User avatar
Klaudandus
 
Posts: 9505
Joined: Thu Apr 02, 2009 7:08 am
Location: Texas' Armpit

Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Shoju » Mon Aug 27, 2012 11:37 am

Fridmarr wrote:
Shoju wrote:@Klaud.

The picture had me, and then I realized they don't even know how to spell bigots.

The internet, lacking proof reading skills since 1993.


Well I don't know, it's a bit hypocritical and doing some framing of its own. Are the phrases "under God" and "in God we trust", which don't endorse any specific religion, really what people typically consider as extreme?

I will say though, the whole framing of the other side is very problematic. It's standard operating procedure for ALL of the major media outlets though. I've gotten so frustrated with them, I try to avoid as much as possible.


Actually, the use of the word God, when given a captial "G" to and used as a proper noun, is typically only used to reference the Judeo-Christian God, of the Christian, Jewish, Muslim faiths, and it's a little sketchy on Islam, since they normally reference him as "Allah", even though Allah and God are translations of the same word.

That leaves out some pretty "popular" religions throughout society.

{From here on, there will be some of my opinion interjected}

I think this "chart" tries to frame it with good intentions. The "Religious Right" (At least in this neck of the woods) takes the stance that this country was founded by Christians, for Christians, and that things like "Under God", and "In God We Trust" were platforms upon which the country was founded. I think the problem with this picture (besides the blatant and terrible spelling) is that it labels "Extremes" to try and push the point (like you said).

There is a general feeling by "liberals" in my neck of the woods that the Religious Conservatives do look at it as though we are trying to push the "anti-extreme" to their opinion, and this does do a good job of pointing out that we really aren't pushing the "anti-extreme".

I'm willing to agree that it is a little propoganda-ish (the picture), but I think that it has a "decent idea" that gets lost, in bad fonts, bad spelling, and poorly constructed sentences.
User avatar
Shoju
 
Posts: 5069
Joined: Mon May 19, 2008 7:15 am

Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Aubade » Mon Aug 27, 2012 12:05 pm

http://www.back2stonewall.com/2012/08/a ... -boys.html

And not a single gay activist was suprised.
- Awbade Level 85 Human Paladin - <Tsunami> Frostmourne - Retired.
- Aubade Level 88+ Blood Elf Paladin - BloodScalp - Casual
- Awbade Level 85+ Blood Elf Death Knight - BloodScalp - Casual
- Awbabe Level 85+ Undead Mage - BloodScalp - Casual
Image
User avatar
Aubade
Moderator
 
Posts: 4040
Joined: Sun Jan 18, 2009 12:51 am
Location: Tacoma, WA

Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Shoju » Mon Aug 27, 2012 12:10 pm

Because I am shocked, does that mean I'm not a Gay Activist? Or does it mean that I don't buy in to the stereotype.....
User avatar
Shoju
 
Posts: 5069
Joined: Mon May 19, 2008 7:15 am

Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Aubade » Mon Aug 27, 2012 12:36 pm

Means you don't buy into the stereotype. I was expecting it lol.
- Awbade Level 85 Human Paladin - <Tsunami> Frostmourne - Retired.
- Aubade Level 88+ Blood Elf Paladin - BloodScalp - Casual
- Awbade Level 85+ Blood Elf Death Knight - BloodScalp - Casual
- Awbabe Level 85+ Undead Mage - BloodScalp - Casual
Image
User avatar
Aubade
Moderator
 
Posts: 4040
Joined: Sun Jan 18, 2009 12:51 am
Location: Tacoma, WA

Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Levantine » Mon Aug 27, 2012 12:40 pm

Is it bad that I looked at the mug shot picture and thought "How are people surprised? Look at that dude." I may have a problem judging people on how creepy they look.
User avatar
Levantine
 
Posts: 7367
Joined: Fri Oct 26, 2007 6:48 pm
Location: NQ, Aus

Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Brekkie » Tue Aug 28, 2012 9:35 am

Fridmarr wrote:
Shoju wrote:@Klaud.

The picture had me, and then I realized they don't even know how to spell bigots.

The internet, lacking proof reading skills since 1993.

Well I don't know, it's a bit hypocritical and doing some framing of its own. Are the phrases "under God" and "in God we trust", which don't endorse any specific religion, really what people typically consider as extreme?

I will say though, the whole framing of the other side is very problematic. It's standard operating procedure for ALL of the major media outlets though. I've gotten so frustrated with them, I try to avoid as much as possible.


It also specifically endorses Monotheism, which almost half the world's population doesn't subscribe to.
And those things were artificially inserted very recently, less than a single lifespan ago. The whole "this is a Christian nation" thing has no basis in history, it is purely revisionism as a backlash against rising secularism.

So yes, I do consider those things rather extreme. Not that they are really a big deal by themselves, but they are indicators of extremist sentiment.
Living in fundamentalist Muslim countries really opened my eyes about America. We act so horrified by Islamic extremism, but yet we do some of the exact same things and hold some of the exact same attitudes. Yet that is somehow OK because it's the "right" religion. Screw that.
Theckhd wrote:big numbers are the in-game way of expressing that Brekkie's penis is huge.
Brekkie
 
Posts: 918
Joined: Mon Aug 02, 2010 7:44 pm

Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Sagara » Tue Aug 28, 2012 9:39 am

Brekkie wrote:Living in fundamentalist Muslim countries really opened my eyes about America. We act so horrified by Islamic extremism, but yet we do some of the exact same things and hold some of the exact same attitudes. Yet that is somehow OK because it's the "right" religion. Screw that.


This is completely off-topic, but I'd love to hear more about that. It's so hard to imagine how life could be there - how mind-blowing would it be to realise how similar it would be?
When that day comes, seek all the light and wonder of this world, and fight.

Worldie wrote:I used to like it [mean] back on Sylvanas.

Queldan - EU Stormrage (H) - Good night, sweet prince.
User avatar
Sagara
 
Posts: 3272
Joined: Mon Jan 12, 2009 1:04 am
Location: Belgium

Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Brekkie » Tue Aug 28, 2012 10:26 am

I'll sit down and right you a PM later tonight.
Theckhd wrote:big numbers are the in-game way of expressing that Brekkie's penis is huge.
Brekkie
 
Posts: 918
Joined: Mon Aug 02, 2010 7:44 pm

Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Sabindeus » Tue Aug 28, 2012 11:04 am

Brekkie wrote:I'll sit down and right you a PM later tonight.


ooh ooh me too, I am interested in this topic
Image
Turn In, an NPC interaction automator - http://wow.curse.com/downloads/wow-addo ... rn-in.aspx
User avatar
Sabindeus
Moderator
 
Posts: 6051
Joined: Mon May 14, 2007 9:24 am

Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Skye1013 » Tue Aug 28, 2012 11:41 am

Maybe just make it into a new thread?
"me no gay, me friends gay, me no like you call me gay, you dumb dumb" -bldavis
"Here are the values that I stand for: I stand for honesty, equality, kindness, compassion, treating people the way you wanna be treated, and helping those in need. To me, those are traditional values. That’s what I stand for." -Ellen Degeneres
"I'm not going to censor myself to comfort your ignorance." -Jon Stewart
Horde: Clopin Dylon Sharkbait Xiaman Metria Metapriest
Alliance: Schatze Aleks Deegee Baileyi Sotanaht Danfer Shazta Rawrsalot Roobyroo
User avatar
Skye1013
Maintankadonor
 
Posts: 3588
Joined: Tue May 18, 2010 5:47 am
Location: JBPH-Hickam, Hawaii

Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby bldavis » Tue Aug 28, 2012 11:44 am

it would be better then everyone getting PMs from our favorite overseas marine :)
Image

Brekkie:Tanks are like shitty DPS. And healers are like REALLY distracted DPS
Amirya:Why yes, your penis is longer than his because you hit 30k dps in the first 10 seconds. But guess what? That raid boss has a dick bigger than your ego.
Flex:I don't make mistakes. I execute carefully planned strategic group wipes.
Levie:(in /g) It's weird, I have a collar and I dont know where I got it from, Worgen are kinky!
Levie:Drunk Lev goes and does what he pleases just to annoy sober Lev.
Sagara:You see, you need to *spread* the bun before you insert the hot dog.
User avatar
bldavis
 
Posts: 6111
Joined: Mon Sep 07, 2009 12:04 pm
Location: Searching for myself. If i get back before I return, please have me stop and wait for myself.

Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Sagara » Tue Aug 28, 2012 11:50 am

Think so too - this topic has slided to religion often already.

Still, best be careful, that is THE topic that goes FUBAR very easy...
When that day comes, seek all the light and wonder of this world, and fight.

Worldie wrote:I used to like it [mean] back on Sylvanas.

Queldan - EU Stormrage (H) - Good night, sweet prince.
User avatar
Sagara
 
Posts: 3272
Joined: Mon Jan 12, 2009 1:04 am
Location: Belgium

Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Aubade » Tue Aug 28, 2012 12:13 pm

Forward me that PM? I'm interested =O
- Awbade Level 85 Human Paladin - <Tsunami> Frostmourne - Retired.
- Aubade Level 88+ Blood Elf Paladin - BloodScalp - Casual
- Awbade Level 85+ Blood Elf Death Knight - BloodScalp - Casual
- Awbabe Level 85+ Undead Mage - BloodScalp - Casual
Image
User avatar
Aubade
Moderator
 
Posts: 4040
Joined: Sun Jan 18, 2009 12:51 am
Location: Tacoma, WA

Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Klaudandus » Tue Aug 28, 2012 12:32 pm

Quite interested as well. o/
The Element of Forum Hyperbole
Image
---
Flüttershy - Draenei Protection Paladin, Aerie Peak
Klaudandus - BE Protection Paladin, Feathermoon (Semi-retired)
User avatar
Klaudandus
 
Posts: 9505
Joined: Thu Apr 02, 2009 7:08 am
Location: Texas' Armpit

Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Brekkie » Tue Aug 28, 2012 2:26 pm

Lol, I'll just make a new thread. Should have time this evening.
Theckhd wrote:big numbers are the in-game way of expressing that Brekkie's penis is huge.
Brekkie
 
Posts: 918
Joined: Mon Aug 02, 2010 7:44 pm

Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Fridmarr » Tue Aug 28, 2012 8:58 pm

Brekkie wrote:It also specifically endorses Monotheism, which almost half the world's population doesn't subscribe to.
And those things were artificially inserted very recently, less than a single lifespan ago. The whole "this is a Christian nation" thing has no basis in history, it is purely revisionism as a backlash against rising secularism.

So yes, I do consider those things rather extreme. Not that they are really a big deal by themselves, but they are indicators of extremist sentiment.


Shoju wrote:Actually, the use of the word God, when given a captial "G" to and used as a proper noun, is typically only used to reference the Judeo-Christian God, of the Christian, Jewish, Muslim faiths, and it's a little sketchy on Islam, since they normally reference him as "Allah", even though Allah and God are translations of the same word.

That leaves out some pretty "popular" religions throughout society.


Well to be clear, so that my position isn't being improperly framed (as it looks like it is), I'm not particularly in favor of those slogans. I certainly wouldn't be in favor of them being added now if I was given the choice.

However, there's some significant inaccuracies in some of that. First, that slogan has been on coins for about 150 years. Yes, "under God" was a recent addition to the pledge, some 55 years ago, but that's hardly the whole picture.

God is frequently capitalized when referring to a specific diety. In fact I'm currently reading The Omen Machine (fantasy fiction) which capitalizes any reference to that world's "god", even when the reference is merely a pronoun like He or His.

I wasn't around in the mid 1800's, but I'm skeptical that that sort of reference to God was typical among any of the three religions you mentioned, in fact I think each would use a different term. It doesn't seem to be a particularly great fit for any of them.

I think those are pretty vague open ended slogans really. I mean you can take it to mean really whatever you want, though I think it's a bit of a stretch to suggest that it's endorsing monotheism to the exclusion of other religions (I'm not even sure Christianity is properly classified as monotheistic, but that's an entirely different topic). Certainly they endorse the notion of a higher power, but it's really hard to argue that that notion is not part of our founding. That the basis for many laws of man don't have such origins. That it wasn't a very significant part of our culture, or even isn't today.

They aren't proselytizing (which is what I think would be required to balance out that image of extremism) they are merely slogans that reference a concept long accepted in our government and very popular in our culture. While I don't really think the government ought to be using them, the notion that they are somehow extreme seems utterly silly to me.
Fridmarr
Global Mod
 
Posts: 6465
Joined: Sun Apr 08, 2007 1:03 am

Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Malthrax » Wed Aug 29, 2012 6:29 am

We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, ... and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves

AHMAGHERD!! DEM BLESSINGS DHEY BHURN!!


When in the course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

2.1 We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.


Sheesh... can't even get TWO SENTENCES into a political document without "Righty" throwing around his "GOD" crap... :roll:
User avatar
Malthrax
 
Posts: 481
Joined: Tue Feb 03, 2009 11:23 am

Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Shoju » Wed Aug 29, 2012 7:12 am

Brekkie wrote:Living in fundamentalist Muslim countries really opened my eyes about America. We act so horrified by Islamic extremism, but yet we do some of the exact same things and hold some of the exact same attitudes. Yet that is somehow OK because it's the "right" religion. Screw that.


Well Said, and I would love to hear about it in another thread even. I'm a "religion nut", not a "religious nut" so to speak, and I've been fascinated by fundamentalist cultures.
User avatar
Shoju
 
Posts: 5069
Joined: Mon May 19, 2008 7:15 am

PreviousNext

Return to Arkham Asylum

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest

Who is online

In total there is 1 user online :: 0 registered, 0 hidden and 1 guest (based on users active over the past 5 minutes)
Most users ever online was 380 on Tue Oct 14, 2008 6:28 pm

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest