LGBT rights discussion

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Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Koatanga » Wed Aug 01, 2012 1:44 pm

"We reserve the right to refuse service to anyone."

Equal opportunity laws don't protect customers - they protect employees. The Americans with Disabilities Act protects customers somewhat, in that it makes businesses do smart business and provide reasonable accommodations for the physically disabled, but equal opportunity ends where a store's property begins.


Title 2 of the Civil Rights Act of 1964 states:

All persons shall be entitled to the full and equal enjoyment of the goods, services, facilities, and privileges, advantages, and accommodations of any place of public accommodation, as defined in this section, without discrimination or segregation on the ground of race, color, religion, or national origin.


If you are a private business with a private clientele, such as a private golf course, you can discriminate as you please. If you are a business open to the general public, you cannot.
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Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Klaudandus » Wed Aug 01, 2012 1:47 pm

it doesn't mention anything about sexual orientation... just saying~
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Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Malthrax » Wed Aug 01, 2012 2:07 pm

Klaudandus wrote:it doesn't mention anything about sexual orientation... just saying~

That's specifically the point... right now its perfectly legal to discriminate based on sexual orientation - homosexuality is not a "protected" class. Its still considered to be a lifestyle choice. In order to end that, properly, supporters of "gay rights" need to get sexual orientation added to the list of protected classes enumerated in the CRA, so that sexual orientation is considered on equal footing with race, color, gender, etc.
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Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Klaudandus » Wed Aug 01, 2012 2:10 pm

touche~

I assumed Koatanga was trying to say that the bakery was wrong in discriminating based on the CRA even though it doesn't mention anything about sexual orientation -- rather than saying that the bakery is able to discriminate because the CRA doesnt explicitly prohibit discrimination based on sexual orientation.
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Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Koatanga » Wed Aug 01, 2012 2:17 pm

Klaudandus wrote:it doesn't mention anything about sexual orientation... just saying~

Of course I realise that. However, there's a follow-on from a prior post where I suggested a replacement of "gay" with "black" and asked if it would still be ok to refuse service.

There seems to be an opinion that the business owner has the right to refuse service to anyone, so I wanted to point out that the law says differently with respect to the classes of people stated in the Act. Any individual can be refused, but a class of people cannot be.

The Civil Rights Act of 1964 is the relevant law pertaining to this thread as it establishes a pattern of banning discrimination against groups of people based on a single characteristic, such as race, colour, religion, or nation of origin. I do believe sexual orientation should be added to that.

And while the Act doesn't mention sexual orientation, the bakery owner states he refused service on the basis of his religion. The Act does not specify that the religious ground needs to be that of the consumer, so I believe there is a legal argument to be made that discrimination on the basis of the shopkeeper's religion is in fact discrimination on the ground of religion and is therefore covered by the Act.
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Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Klaudandus » Wed Aug 01, 2012 2:30 pm

Yeah, like I said when I replied to Malthrax, I thought you were trying to make a point when in reality you were trying to make a different one. My bad.
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Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Koatanga » Thu Aug 02, 2012 2:08 pm

I am proud to say that the New Zealand government is currently considering a bill to make gay marriage legal. We currently have legal Civil Unions between same-sex partners, with all of the rights of married people except the ability to adopt children. The bill being discussed will allow proper marriage between same-sex couples.

I am glad that the people in our government did not rest on their laurels having won the Civil Union battle, but continued to push for marriage.
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Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Skye1013 » Thu Aug 02, 2012 5:02 pm

Hopefully it makes it through!

As for the Civil Union vs Marriage thing... I have no problems with Civil Unions IF they are the exact same thing (at which point you're only arguing the semantics of a name.) Or, as has been mentioned previously, Civil Union = government recognized coupling, Marriage = religiously recognized coupling (granting no benefits unless for some reason your particular religion gives married members some sort of "perk," but then that probably falls under something similar to the BSA and exclusivity.)
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Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Klaudandus » Mon Aug 06, 2012 6:53 pm

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Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Skye1013 » Wed Aug 08, 2012 6:33 pm

This guy needs to be lobotomized in the most painful way possible.
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Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Fivelives » Wed Aug 08, 2012 9:51 pm

A lobotomy is too kind. He should be slathered in honey and staked out over a fire ant hill during the hottest part of the day here where I live, then have a wasp's nest dropped on him from a highrise construction crane.

After he recovers from that, a gay couple should kidnap his kids and get them out via an Underground Railroad, just to see how this jackass likes it. Seriously.
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Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Skye1013 » Wed Aug 08, 2012 10:06 pm

I was attempting to rescue the brain that is obviously not in use. I'm sure science could use a brain like that to study...
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Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby bldavis » Wed Aug 08, 2012 11:01 pm

my favorite was when i saw another article titled "Bryan Fischer: Using My Words To Prove My Hate Of Gays Is A Hate Crime"


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Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Fivelives » Thu Aug 09, 2012 12:17 am

I didn't know it was possible for a grown man to be that oblivious to the shit spewing out of their hot air vents without being the product of dedicated inbreeding.

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Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Sabindeus » Thu Aug 09, 2012 9:40 am

the fact that anyone could actually say those things and mean it really blows my mind
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Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Passionario » Thu Aug 09, 2012 10:32 am

Sabindeus wrote:the fact that anyone could actually say those things and mean it really blows my mind


Oh, it's easy. People do it all the time. As Robert Anton Wilson put it, "Whatever the Thinker thinks, the Prover proves". All humans have an inherent tendency to focus on facts and experiences that support their personal worldview, filter out things that don't fit in it, and interpret ambiguities in the way that is more consistent with it. And, of course, the more proof we find, the stronger said worldview becomes, this forming a self-supporting feedback loop.

For example, if an individual with strong anti-LGBT beliefs was to read the last few posts prior to yours and take them at face value, he'd see two villains cold-bloodedly discussing whether it would be more advantageous to torture or lobotomize their political opponents. "Holy shit", he or she would think, "Bryan Fischer was right, after all! These guys are literal Nazis!". :roll:
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Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Sabindeus » Thu Aug 09, 2012 1:03 pm

Passionario wrote:
Sabindeus wrote:the fact that anyone could actually say those things and mean it really blows my mind


Oh, it's easy. People do it all the time. As Robert Anton Wilson put it, "Whatever the Thinker thinks, the Prover proves". All humans have an inherent tendency to focus on facts and experiences that support their personal worldview, filter out things that don't fit in it, and interpret ambiguities in the way that is more consistent with it. And, of course, the more proof we find, the stronger said worldview becomes, this forming a self-supporting feedback loop.

For example, if an individual with strong anti-LGBT beliefs was to read the last few posts prior to yours and take them at face value, he'd see two villains cold-bloodedly discussing whether it would be more advantageous to torture or lobotomize their political opponents. "Holy shit", he or she would think, "Bryan Fischer was right, after all! These guys are literal Nazis!". :roll:


I was going to say that, but then I actually clicked on the link and saw that they were just riffing off of what the dude said.
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Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Skye1013 » Thu Aug 09, 2012 4:03 pm

It's true, context is important. Just look at the "gaffe" the President made (according to right wing media) by saying people didn't build their companies/positions. Sure, HE was referring to bridges and roads... but they conveniently skipped over that.
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Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Skye1013 » Thu Aug 09, 2012 4:15 pm

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"me no gay, me friends gay, me no like you call me gay, you dumb dumb" -bldavis
"Here are the values that I stand for: I stand for honesty, equality, kindness, compassion, treating people the way you wanna be treated, and helping those in need. To me, those are traditional values. That’s what I stand for." -Ellen Degeneres
"I'm not going to censor myself to comfort your ignorance." -Jon Stewart
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Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Fridmarr » Thu Aug 09, 2012 5:09 pm

Passionario wrote:For example, if an individual with strong anti-LGBT beliefs was to read the last few posts prior to yours and take them at face value, he'd see two villains cold-bloodedly discussing whether it would be more advantageous to torture or lobotomize their political opponents. "Holy shit", he or she would think, "Bryan Fischer was right, after all! These guys are literal Nazis!". :roll:

HAHA, well done.
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Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby bldavis » Sat Aug 11, 2012 1:10 am

dam skye, you beat me to it!
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Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby tullock » Sun Aug 12, 2012 2:07 am

The only punishment that guy deserves is to see happily married same sex couples happily raising happy children. Just because he is a monster doesn't mean that those of us that can see him as such should also become monsters.

Not that i wouldnt kill the shit out of anyone who was kidnapping children, and may whatever non christian God they worship have mercy on their eternal soul, because my christian one doesnt preach the hatemongering that has been going on.
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Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Levantine » Sun Aug 12, 2012 4:31 am

tullock wrote:The only punishment that guy deserves is to see happily married same sex couples happily raising happy children. Just because he is a monster doesn't mean that those of us that can see him as such should also become monsters.

Not that i wouldnt kill the shit out of anyone who was kidnapping children, and may whatever non christian God they worship have mercy on their eternal soul, because my christian one doesnt preach the hatemongering that has been going on.

I wholeheartedly agree, the best part of that is that seeing happily married gay couples with happy children would be more torturous than anything else that could have been done to him. I'm probably not a great person.
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Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Nikachelle » Sun Aug 12, 2012 4:52 am

Except that they'll remain forever convinced that the kids are unhappy. They'll see what they want to see, basically.
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Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Fivelives » Sun Aug 12, 2012 7:01 am

Problem with that is the audience. If he was just Joe Schmoe from down the block, it wouldn't be an issue - BUT, he's a "respected" figure with an audience of around 180 million people listening to his hatemongering.
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