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LGBT rights discussion

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Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Klaudandus » Tue Jul 31, 2012 10:57 am

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Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Klaudandus » Tue Jul 31, 2012 11:01 am

And tangentially related

Stop the Gay Marriage Bullying
*spoiler* The title is not what you think it means.
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Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby bldavis » Tue Jul 31, 2012 1:28 pm

Klaudandus wrote:And tangentially related

Stop the Gay Marriage Bullying
*spoiler* The title is not what you think it means.

honestly i agree
we have a mostly capitalistic free market economy
someone doesnt want to make money through commerce with you, move on to someone who will
if as a business owner you decide that personal beliefs are more important then profits, for one gratz on having the balls to stand up for your beliefs, and two: it is your loss of profits

i am with the writer on this one
just cause someone doesnt want to bake a cake for a gay couple for their wedding, doesnt mean you should picket
it means you should move on to another bakery and use them in the future
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Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Klaudandus » Tue Jul 31, 2012 1:52 pm

I agree as well, to a certain degree, but I think this might be a the case of being right for the wrong reasons.
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Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Koatanga » Tue Jul 31, 2012 2:54 pm

bldavis wrote:
Klaudandus wrote:And tangentially related

Stop the Gay Marriage Bullying
*spoiler* The title is not what you think it means.

honestly i agree
we have a mostly capitalistic free market economy
someone doesnt want to make money through commerce with you, move on to someone who will
if as a business owner you decide that personal beliefs are more important then profits, for one gratz on having the balls to stand up for your beliefs, and two: it is your loss of profits

i am with the writer on this one
just cause someone doesnt want to bake a cake for a gay couple for their wedding, doesnt mean you should picket
it means you should move on to another bakery and use them in the future

There's a fundamental difference between not serving a customer who wants something inconsistent with the ideals and standards of the company, and refusing to serve a class of people based on prejucice.

Replace "gay" with "black" and ask yourself if you still believe your statement: "just cause someone doesnt want to bake a cake for a black couple for their wedding, doesnt mean you should picket." In my book, it probably does merit action.

Now, this bakery in particular does serve gay customers, but refuses to create a wedding cake for a gay wedding. That's fine, to me, provided the cake the couple wants has, for instance, two brides or two grooms on it. The cake is the creative product of the bakery, and no one can force them to decorate a cake a certain way.

If a gay couple just wanted a cake with flowers and such on it that is consistent with the work of that bakery, then I would have an issue because nothing about the cake itself is offensive to the owner of the bakery, and denial of service would be solely on the basis of prejudice.

I believe that the bakery is currently within it's legal rights either way - I don't believe it is currently illegal, per the Civil Rights Act, to discriminate on the basis of sexual orientation. But laws don't get changed unless someone challenges the law, which is what pickets like this are doing.

And let's be honest: The Westboro folks picket over reasons more stupid and frivolous than this one. People picket because they get their knickers in a twist, regardless of why it happened.
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Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby bldavis » Tue Jul 31, 2012 4:02 pm

if it was a special order specific for the couple, i can stand by the business owners decision
if it was a standard cake, then yeah there is an issue

and honestly, replace gay with blacks and im still ok
replace it with jews or mormoms or w/e and its still a business decision...
i may not agree with the opinions of the owner, but it is their business to run how they want

i will not utilize their services, but i respect them for keeping true to their beliefs
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Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby tinalt » Tue Jul 31, 2012 6:30 pm

It is the bakers right to act the way he did, even though I don't agree with it. But it is also the right of the picketers to voice their opinions on his actions. As long as they are not physically blocking customer access to his shop, they're not doing anything wrong.

Honestly, the only person I see doing anything quesitonable right now is the reporter. Instead of stating the facts of the situation and leaving it up to the audience to decide which side they support, she calls the protesters crude bullies, who are resorting to "intimidation".
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Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Fridmarr » Tue Jul 31, 2012 7:17 pm

Not that I'm one to defend the media, but she isn't a reporter, she's a political commentator. I know with the sad state of our media it can be hard to tell the difference... So her behavior isn't really questionable.

I don't happen to agree with her, I think it's fine for people to protest a business if they want. That said, the link from her blog post is a very interesting, though at this point not new, discussion.
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Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Fivelives » Wed Aug 01, 2012 7:53 am

"We reserve the right to refuse service to anyone."

Equal opportunity laws don't protect customers - they protect employees. The Americans with Disabilities Act protects customers somewhat, in that it makes businesses do smart business and provide reasonable accommodations for the physically disabled, but equal opportunity ends where a store's property begins.

In other words, if a bakery chooses to refuse service to someone, that's the end of story. And I think I said something to this effect before, but - if you're gay, would you really want a wedding cake baked for you by someone that hates you? If you're black, would you really want to walk into a store that's owned and operated by a high mucketymuck of the KKK?

Not going where you're not wanted is basic common sense, so I guess that's why it's not covered by law. Someone, I forget who, said something about legislating common sense being a piss-poor use of time and taxpayer money, if I'm not mistaken.

So yeah, it pretty much sucks that discrimination exists. I don't like it, but it's something that we have to deal with. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, even if it's reprehensible to others.
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Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby bldavis » Wed Aug 01, 2012 9:29 am

wtf happened to the universe?
i actually agree with fivelives
that was basically what i was trying to say ^
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Brekkie:Tanks are like shitty DPS. And healers are like REALLY distracted DPS
Amirya:Why yes, your penis is longer than his because you hit 30k dps in the first 10 seconds. But guess what? That raid boss has a dick bigger than your ego.
Flex:I don't make mistakes. I execute carefully planned strategic group wipes.
Levie:(in /g) It's weird, I have a collar and I dont know where I got it from, Worgen are kinky!
Levie:Drunk Lev goes and does what he pleases just to annoy sober Lev.
Sagara:You see, you need to *spread* the bun before you insert the hot dog.
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Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Koatanga » Wed Aug 01, 2012 1:44 pm

"We reserve the right to refuse service to anyone."

Equal opportunity laws don't protect customers - they protect employees. The Americans with Disabilities Act protects customers somewhat, in that it makes businesses do smart business and provide reasonable accommodations for the physically disabled, but equal opportunity ends where a store's property begins.


Title 2 of the Civil Rights Act of 1964 states:

All persons shall be entitled to the full and equal enjoyment of the goods, services, facilities, and privileges, advantages, and accommodations of any place of public accommodation, as defined in this section, without discrimination or segregation on the ground of race, color, religion, or national origin.


If you are a private business with a private clientele, such as a private golf course, you can discriminate as you please. If you are a business open to the general public, you cannot.
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Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Klaudandus » Wed Aug 01, 2012 1:47 pm

it doesn't mention anything about sexual orientation... just saying~
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Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Malthrax » Wed Aug 01, 2012 2:07 pm

Klaudandus wrote:it doesn't mention anything about sexual orientation... just saying~

That's specifically the point... right now its perfectly legal to discriminate based on sexual orientation - homosexuality is not a "protected" class. Its still considered to be a lifestyle choice. In order to end that, properly, supporters of "gay rights" need to get sexual orientation added to the list of protected classes enumerated in the CRA, so that sexual orientation is considered on equal footing with race, color, gender, etc.
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Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Klaudandus » Wed Aug 01, 2012 2:10 pm

touche~

I assumed Koatanga was trying to say that the bakery was wrong in discriminating based on the CRA even though it doesn't mention anything about sexual orientation -- rather than saying that the bakery is able to discriminate because the CRA doesnt explicitly prohibit discrimination based on sexual orientation.
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Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Koatanga » Wed Aug 01, 2012 2:17 pm

Klaudandus wrote:it doesn't mention anything about sexual orientation... just saying~

Of course I realise that. However, there's a follow-on from a prior post where I suggested a replacement of "gay" with "black" and asked if it would still be ok to refuse service.

There seems to be an opinion that the business owner has the right to refuse service to anyone, so I wanted to point out that the law says differently with respect to the classes of people stated in the Act. Any individual can be refused, but a class of people cannot be.

The Civil Rights Act of 1964 is the relevant law pertaining to this thread as it establishes a pattern of banning discrimination against groups of people based on a single characteristic, such as race, colour, religion, or nation of origin. I do believe sexual orientation should be added to that.

And while the Act doesn't mention sexual orientation, the bakery owner states he refused service on the basis of his religion. The Act does not specify that the religious ground needs to be that of the consumer, so I believe there is a legal argument to be made that discrimination on the basis of the shopkeeper's religion is in fact discrimination on the ground of religion and is therefore covered by the Act.
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