LGBT rights discussion

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Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Skye1013 » Fri Jul 27, 2012 2:52 am

Oddly relevant to two of the conversations going in this thread... (sorry Fridmarr)
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Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Malthrax » Fri Jul 27, 2012 5:55 am

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Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby theckhd » Fri Jul 27, 2012 7:03 am

Malthrax wrote:"Science adjusts its views based on what the Left believes causes Global Warming."

That's... really not how it works. At all. But this is definitely not the thread for tinfoil hat political junk. Take it to the elections thread.
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Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Fridmarr » Fri Jul 27, 2012 7:41 am

Skye1013 wrote:Oddly relevant to two of the conversations going in this thread... (sorry Fridmarr)

When you feel the need to apologize for a post as you are writing it, then you probably shouldn't post it. The quote itself is really stupid (good grief how many examples have been cited in this very thread where faiths have changed their opinions due to observation) and we have the gall to criticize religion for its lack of logic...

Anyhow, it also annoyingly restarted a digression that we'd moved past and worst of all it's pretty disrespectful. I've already asked twice, and I really don't want to lock this thread so please stick to the topic and follow the code of conduct.
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Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Sagara » Fri Jul 27, 2012 7:47 am

Just lock it already. This has gone beyond LGBT rights in the first place, and it seems many prefer to fall to petty attack on both sides of the fence.

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Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Klaudandus » Fri Jul 27, 2012 4:31 pm

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Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Fivelives » Fri Jul 27, 2012 4:33 pm

Asking a thread to stay on topic in the asylum is like asking the sun if it would kindly please rise in the west tomorrow.
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Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby bldavis » Fri Jul 27, 2012 5:46 pm

https://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/528982_411398102228949_984383535_n.jpg
i agree with sagara, just lock this thread now
we are starting to get into politics and science, not religion and human rights
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Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Fridmarr » Fri Jul 27, 2012 6:44 pm

Discussing the political and religious issues around LGBT rights is fine, just not with ignorant stereotypes. There are plenty of good posts here worthy of discussion. What you just posted is a great example that debates a specific religion based claim, and is perfectly valid for discussion.
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Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby bldavis » Fri Jul 27, 2012 7:20 pm

ok i admit i was trolling a little, sorry

i saw that and thought it was appropriate for this thread
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Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Klaudandus » Sun Jul 29, 2012 12:11 pm

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Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Klaudandus » Mon Jul 30, 2012 11:27 am

Tangentially related -- http://www.glaad.org/blog/chick-fil-sue ... rimination

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Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Shoju » Mon Jul 30, 2012 12:29 pm

Klaudandus wrote:Tangentially related -- http://www.glaad.org/blog/chick-fil-sue ... rimination

Chick Fil A wants you to be a stay at home mother, and will do their best to make it so.


After reading more about this company, they are just downright creepy.
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Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Koatanga » Mon Jul 30, 2012 5:39 pm

Here's a good one:

http://www.towleroad.com/2012/07/nmnohope.html

A Christian school that receives federal funding is denying entrance to a 3-year-old on the basis of the sexual preference of his parents.

I reckon if you receive public money, you don't get to discriminate, and if you do choose to discriminate, it should be against an individual, not his parents.

If the sexual preference of the parents dictated the sexual preference of the child, noone could possibly be gay.
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Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Klaudandus » Mon Jul 30, 2012 5:47 pm

Koatanga wrote:Here's a good one:

http://www.towleroad.com/2012/07/nmnohope.html

A Christian school that receives federal funding is denying entrance to a 3-year-old on the basis of the sexual preference of his parents.

I reckon if you receive public money, you don't get to discriminate, and if you do choose to discriminate, it should be against an individual, not his parents.

If the sexual preference of the parents dictated the sexual preference of the child, noone could possibly be gay.


Well, considering that the boy scouts can get away with it, like getting preferential access to government resources like land or facilities.

Some cities have put a stop to their local chapters based on the fact that as long as they discriminate against gays, they will not get the preferential access normally given to them (like renting land for $1)...
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Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Skye1013 » Mon Jul 30, 2012 6:05 pm

Speaking of which, have you heard the stories about a number of Eagle Scouts that sent back their awards in protest?

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Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby bldavis » Mon Jul 30, 2012 7:14 pm

had i been an Eagle Scout (never did my service project, despite having everything lined up and approved for it) i would be doing that too
i have already told my local chapters that i was involved with that i wont sit on any board of reviews or be a merit badge councillor for the forseeable future

im not part of the LGBT community but some of my friends are
just see Skye's current sig for a quote of mine

i feel BSA is a great organization and i cherish my memories from being a boy scout, but i cant support an organization that denies membership based on someones sexual orientation
it is as bad discriminating on race, gendor, or beliefs
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Amirya:Why yes, your penis is longer than his because you hit 30k dps in the first 10 seconds. But guess what? That raid boss has a dick bigger than your ego.
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Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Fridmarr » Mon Jul 30, 2012 7:54 pm

Koatanga wrote:Here's a good one:

http://www.towleroad.com/2012/07/nmnohope.html

A Christian school that receives federal funding is denying entrance to a 3-year-old on the basis of the sexual preference of his parents.

I reckon if you receive public money, you don't get to discriminate, and if you do choose to discriminate, it should be against an individual, not his parents.

If the sexual preference of the parents dictated the sexual preference of the child, noone could possibly be gay.

That's not the established legal stance though. The supreme court ruled that the government can not discriminate against those that do (case where a school wouldn't let the boy scouts use their facility to meet because of their LGBT stance). Discrimination is perfectly legal, natural, and often good. It's also protected under laws like freedom of speech and freedom of assembly.

The problem here is that the nature of the discrimination is one that we disagree with because it results in unequal legal standing for people, but the government has to call that out at a federal level and they haven't yet. As I mentioned much earlier in this thread, the federal government still treats homosexuality as a choice. Once the government establishes that that isn't really the case, the 14th amendment kicks in and then this type of discrimination falls under the equal protection clause and it's a whole new ballgame.
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Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Skye1013 » Mon Jul 30, 2012 8:08 pm

Is there something I'm missing about the 14th that makes it not already apply?

All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the state wherein they reside. No state shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

I don't see anything on there that would lead me to believe it implies "except homosexuals."
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Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Koatanga » Mon Jul 30, 2012 8:30 pm

Skye1013 wrote:Is there something I'm missing about the 14th that makes it not already apply?

All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the state wherein they reside. No state shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

I don't see anything on there that would lead me to believe it implies "except homosexuals."

It's not the action of a state, but of a private school. The 14th doesn't apply. However, there is Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964, which is more affirmative in providing rights rather than telling states what they can't do.

The Act prohibits discrimination on the basis of race, color, religion, sex, or national origin. Sexual orientation, as Fridmarr pointed out, is not mentioned.

It is interesting and possibly worth noting that neither is there mention of discrimination on the basis of parentage or legal guardianship. The act specifically states "the individual". Theoretically an organisation could legally discriminate against anyone who has at least one black parent, for example, without discriminating against the individual for being black.
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Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Klaudandus » Mon Jul 30, 2012 8:34 pm

Koatanga wrote:[
It's not the action of a state, but of a private school.


A private school that receives federal funds.
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Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Skye1013 » Mon Jul 30, 2012 8:39 pm

Sorry, I wasn't meaning in relation to the school. Was referring to this:
Fridmarr wrote:The problem here is that the nature of the discrimination is one that we disagree with because it results in unequal legal standing for people, but the government has to call that out at a federal level and they haven't yet. As I mentioned much earlier in this thread, the federal government still treats homosexuality as a choice. Once the government establishes that that isn't really the case, the 14th amendment kicks in and then this type of discrimination falls under the equal protection clause and it's a whole new ballgame.

If Fridmarr was specifically talking about the school, then nevermind. If he was referring to LGBT rights as a whole, then I'm still somewhat lost, since the CRA you mentioned only appears to apply to workplace discrimination.
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Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Skye1013 » Mon Jul 30, 2012 8:41 pm

Klaudandus wrote:
Koatanga wrote:It's not the action of a state, but of a private school.


A private school that receives federal funds.

Question that is kind of related: the private schools that receive vouchers from the government for kids that want to go but can't afford it... is that still considered government funding, thereby making your argument still apply?
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Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Klaudandus » Mon Jul 30, 2012 8:44 pm

It seems to zigzag depending on the state.

That was my whole beef a while back about religious schools getting vouchers, even though their curriculum included breaks every so often to include bible verses between other subjects and modified "science" textbooks as the basis, including math books and biology books that do not contradict the bible.

Louisiana seemed ok granting these schools the money, even with their dubious curriculum but made a big fuss when a muslim school also asked for their share of voucher money.

Apparently, Freedom of Religion means Freedom of their religion.
Last edited by Klaudandus on Mon Jul 30, 2012 8:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Skye1013 » Mon Jul 30, 2012 8:46 pm

There are math books that contradict the bible?

Sorry... you can ignore that if you want, since it's not really "on topic."
"me no gay, me friends gay, me no like you call me gay, you dumb dumb" -bldavis
"Here are the values that I stand for: I stand for honesty, equality, kindness, compassion, treating people the way you wanna be treated, and helping those in need. To me, those are traditional values. That’s what I stand for." -Ellen Degeneres
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