LGBT rights discussion

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Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Nikachelle » Mon Jul 23, 2012 7:19 pm

Civil unions don't have the same rights/privileges as married couples, for one.
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Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby bldavis » Mon Jul 23, 2012 7:23 pm

Klaudandus wrote:
Amirya wrote:I've always wondered...

If civil unions between two consenting adults (regardless of gender) are approved, what are the overly religious going to do when those civil unions start being called 'marriages' because they are recognised by faiths that do support same-sex civil unions?


throw a fit, stomp their feet and say that the government is overrun by socialist atheists/muslims that are anti-american.

so...what they do now?

i think levie's point is a great one, and i whole heartedly agree

plus that eases the headaches with religions and marriage
such as the RLDS church and polygamy
civil unions are locked to 2 consenting adults, and a CU is what provides the spousal rights
marriage can be however many you want, you just only get spousal rights/privileges with the one person in a CU with you
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Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Lieris » Mon Jul 23, 2012 7:25 pm

Treck wrote:
Lieris wrote:A lot of non-religious and same sex couples don't want a civil union, they want a marriage.

For a non religious couple, whats really the differance?


Again, what does marriage have to do with religion?

I think I explained well enough regarding the difference especially on an international level.
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Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Levantine » Mon Jul 23, 2012 7:40 pm

Just putting it out there but in my head, the solution I put forth would destroy the concept of marriage being a legal term. Civil partnerships would be the same as marriage is now, just with a different name because apparently Churchies are fucking loud and annoying on this subject. I'm currently not able to get to a computer to put my thoughts down properly so I'd imagine some gets lost in the clipped nature of my phone typing.

Would there be international dramas if the country didn't have marriage at all and instead had civil unions? I'd imagine if the two were identical in all but name probably not, but I'm bad at eu.
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Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Lieris » Mon Jul 23, 2012 7:53 pm

The term marriage has too much significance though. It's too entrenched in people's psyche and in law to be suddenly excised and given exclusively to the religious (and again, not all religious groups are against same sex marriage and some gay people are religious). Doing that to pacify the louder religious folk is not a good reason.

Regarding civil unions, an opposite sex couple can have one in France. They go over the border to Italy and boom, they are in a state where their "marriage" is not recognised. http://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/fa ... dex_en.htm

Civil unions in France are often seen as a stopgap for opposite sex couples because you can't inherit from your spouse when he/she dies but you get the point.

Even if on a national level civil partnership and marriage confer the same rights, on an international recognition and immigration level it doesn't work out like that.
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Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Fridmarr » Mon Jul 23, 2012 8:04 pm

Lieris wrote:The term marriage has too much significance though. It's too entrenched in people's psyche and in law to be suddenly excised and given exclusively to the religious (and again, not all religious groups are against same sex marriage and some gay people are religious). Doing that to pacify the louder religious folk is not a good reason.
You could say the same thing about opposite sex marriage, but that's hardly a good reason. The idea is that there is no legal concept of marriage exactly because of that overarching significance you refer too which goes well beyond the legal associations with the term. Legally there is just civil unions for everyone.

That doesn't stop anyone from getting married, so marriage does not become an exclusively religious thing. Folks can still get married but that relationship only has value to the couple and whatever entity they associate it with.
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Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Koatanga » Mon Jul 23, 2012 8:56 pm

Lieris wrote:The term marriage has too much significance though. It's too entrenched in people's psyche and in law to be suddenly excised and given exclusively to the religious (and again, not all religious groups are against same sex marriage and some gay people are religious). Doing that to pacify the louder religious folk is not a good reason.

Regarding civil unions, an opposite sex couple can have one in France. They go over the border to Italy and boom, they are in a state where their "marriage" is not recognised. http://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/fa ... dex_en.htm

Civil unions in France are often seen as a stopgap for opposite sex couples because you can't inherit from your spouse when he/she dies but you get the point.

Even if on a national level civil partnership and marriage confer the same rights, on an international recognition and immigration level it doesn't work out like that.


There will always be an international problem, as long as some countries don't allow same-sex marriage/union/whatever. A same-sex proper marriage performed in Finland would not be legal in the US because the US only recognises a marriage between a man and a woman. Calling it a marriage instead of a Civil Union makes no difference.

Currently, there are more countries recognising Civil Unions between same-sex partners than there are countries that recognise marriage between them. In that respect, you're better off getting a Civil Union.

I checked New Zealand, by the way. The Civil Union had every right and privilege that a marriage has except that people in a civil union cannot adopt jointly (although they may adopt individually). One presumes we still have a fear that the parents will pass gay to their adopted child, conveniently ignoring the fact that every single gay person in the world came from a straight coupling.
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Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Passionario » Mon Jul 23, 2012 11:39 pm

In view of the spirit of universal love and acceptance that is currently dominant in this thread, would it be too forward of me to ask those fine ladies and gentlemen who don't believe in the existence of a higher power to kindly refrain from making quips about God as "magical fairy in the sky" or "imaginary friend"?

As far a internet communities go, Maintankadin is a remarkably mature place. We recognize that belonging to a particular gender does not give us a license to make sexist jokes about our counterparts of the opposite sex; we understand that being a member of a given race does not entitle us to make racist remarks towards those whose skin happens to have a different color; we agree that having citizenship in a given country is not a free pass to launching nationalist diatribes based on offensive foreign stereotypes, and so forth.

Which, to be honest, makes these casual anti-theist insults all the more hurtful. :(
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Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Treck » Tue Jul 24, 2012 12:52 am

Nikachelle wrote:Civil unions don't have the same rights/privileges as married couples, for one.

Over here its pretty much exactly the same thing.
I think the term civil union was even removed as they realized there was in essence no difference at all and calling it two different things didnt make sense.
People who have registered a partnership in another country, is officially counted as if they were married by all laws and regulation in sweden.
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Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby KysenMurrin » Tue Jul 24, 2012 1:12 am

Civil partnerships in the UK are identical to marriage, too, even down to inheritence and responsibility for a spouse's children. It's mostly just the cultural baggage, the widespread perception of one being lesser, that drives the push to have marriages equalised also (that, and gay people who are religious - religious elements are specifically excluded from civil partnership ceremonies).

(There's also a much smaller push to allow civil partnerships for opposite-sex couples.)
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Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Koatanga » Tue Jul 24, 2012 2:00 am

Passionario wrote:We recognize that belonging to a particular gender does not give us a license to make sexist jokes about our counterparts of the opposite sex; we understand that being a member of a given race does not entitle us to make racist remarks towards those whose skin happens to have a different color; we agree that having citizenship in a given country is not a free pass to launching nationalist diatribes based on offensive foreign stereotypes, and so forth.


If only being heterosexual did not entitle people to make decisions for homosexual people...
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Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Passionario » Tue Jul 24, 2012 3:39 am

Koatanga wrote:If only being heterosexual did not entitle people to make decisions for homosexual people...


Alas, this is an unfortunate systemic flaw of virtually all governments: the segment of the population that has the greatest influence over any given policy is, more often than not, vastly different from the segment most impacted by said policy. Immigration rules are written by people who are not themselves immigrants, bans on video games are issued by people who neither play nor make video games, etc.

But I wasn't talking about that. I was simply asking for some basic courtesy towards fellow Maintankadin posters. Is it really too much to ask for?
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Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Klaudandus » Tue Jul 24, 2012 5:29 am

just like a bunch of old rich white guys seem so intent to tell what young women can do or cannot do with their vaginas.
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Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Fridmarr » Tue Jul 24, 2012 5:45 am

Lets not go there, particularly with stupidly inaccurate cliches.
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Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Nikachelle » Tue Jul 24, 2012 6:02 am

Klaudandus wrote:just like a bunch of old rich white guys seem so intent to tell what young women can do or cannot do with their vaginas.

Fucking SERIOUSLY.

There's been some absolute LUNATICS here in Toronto the past few weeks - I don't even know where the hell they've come from because this is typically not that kind of country. Like... there are little kids/teens (ranging in age from 8 to 15 years old) holding up anti-abortion signs with dead babies, shredded apart, blood everywhere. Kids who look like they don't even know what sex is to begin with. I'm always tempted to walk up to the young girls and ask them how they would feel if they were raped and forced to carry their rapist's child to birth. Doesn't help that all of their signs list a web site that is entirely religion driven.

Ugh. Anyway, moving on. Had to let that one out.
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Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Nikachelle » Tue Jul 24, 2012 6:03 am

Treck wrote:
Nikachelle wrote:Civil unions don't have the same rights/privileges as married couples, for one.

Over here its pretty much exactly the same thing.
I think the term civil union was even removed as they realized there was in essence no difference at all and calling it two different things didnt make sense.
People who have registered a partnership in another country, is officially counted as if they were married by all laws and regulation in sweden.

But "pretty much" is not "exactly" the same thing (although you've said in your country it is now the same thing). No one wants to feel like a second class citizen.
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Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Treck » Tue Jul 24, 2012 6:28 am

Passionario wrote:But I wasn't talking about that. I was simply asking for some basic courtesy towards fellow Maintankadin posters. Is it really too much to ask for?

I read your last post but decided to leave it unanswered as I was having a hard time figuring out how to phrase myself but I felt like I atleast wanted to give you my view on it.

I agree that maintankadin is a very outstandingly civil forum on the internet for imo.
there's always some topic that go off topic ofc, keeping race/sex/orientation/religion out of a topic where it's irrelevant is usually followed.
But here it is not irrelevant, and I do not discriminate, any religion that sets aside facts and knowledge for superstition (Christianity, scientology and nordic/Greek mythology alike) are setting the world back.
The comment could be made that religion is to atleast a very big part a reason for this discussion in the first place, as they are usually the strongest and loudest opponents to this subject, and without .ao.much ignorance and medieval way of thinking ALL of us could be considered equal.
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Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Nikachelle » Tue Jul 24, 2012 6:37 am

Treck wrote: any religion that sets aside facts and knowledge for superstition (Christianity, scientology and nordic/Greek mythology alike) are setting the world back.

This was the absolute best way to say it. And I agree wholeheartedly.
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Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby KysenMurrin » Tue Jul 24, 2012 6:49 am

One of the worst sides of this marriage issue is how it treats transgendered people. In most countries where you are able to legally change your gender, doing so causes any existing marriage to be null and void. In the UK, they've addressed this by giving couples the ability to create a civil partnership to replace the marriage on the same day.

The situation this creates is one where a couple, between one day and the next, can go from being happily and legally married, to not only having the marriage nullified but also now finding it is illegal for them to be married. Just because one of them had the letter on their passport changed between M and F.
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Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby theckhd » Tue Jul 24, 2012 7:35 am

Nikachelle wrote:
Treck wrote: any religion that sets aside facts and knowledge for superstition (Christianity, scientology and nordic/Greek mythology alike) are setting the world back.

This was the absolute best way to say it. And I agree wholeheartedly.

It seems odd to include Greek mythology in that list. I'm unaware of any examples where Greek mythology forbade the pursuit of scientific knowledge.

Keep in mind that many of these myths were created to explain things that humans didn't and couldn't understand at the time. We didn't have a clear idea how planets and orbits worked, so we made up gods that flew through the sky carrying the sun and moon. They were "gap fillers," as it were. The myths themselves aren't to blame for suppressing scientific advancement, it's the people who use those myths to try and prevent it.

Christianity is certainly guilty of that over the course of history, but I'm not aware of cases where Scientology or Nordic mythology did so. At best, you could say that the mere presence of those myths leads fewer people to try and study the science behind the effects the myths "explain," but I don't think that's a terribly significant effect.
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Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Sagara » Tue Jul 24, 2012 7:45 am

Shorthand: don't blame Christianity for people narrowing their worldview. Blame the people, and don't let them hide behind religion.
Then, love and tolerate them, as long as they love and tolerate you as an equal.
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Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby theckhd » Tue Jul 24, 2012 7:52 am

Sagara wrote:Shorthand: don't blame Christianity for people narrowing their worldview. Blame the people, and don't let them hide behind religion.
Then, love and tolerate them, as long as they love and tolerate you as an equal.

More to the point, out of the ones listed only Christianity and Scientology have a current hierarchical structure that has the ability to make decrees about scientific topics. It's still the people at fault of course - the bishops, cardinals, popes, etc. that decide "our religion feels that X is bad."

But the point I was making is that I'm unaware of any point where Greek myths were used to similarly justify interference with scientific research or topics. "Zeus says abortion is evil," for example. Although who knows, maybe they were used for such justifications when the religions were current. I doubt it though, simply because my understanding is that neither Greek nor Nordic mythology had a central organization dictating theology. You need a strong central organization (like Catholocism, for example) to be able to pull that off.
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Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Fridmarr » Tue Jul 24, 2012 8:03 am

Well the topic currently being discussed isn't of a scientific nature anyhow. That said Christianity and science aren't at odds nearly as much as people seem to believe.
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Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Treck » Tue Jul 24, 2012 9:15 am

theckhd wrote:It seems odd to include Greek mythology in that list. I'm unaware of any examples where Greek mythology forbade the pursuit of scientific knowledge.

Keep in mind that many of these myths were created to explain things that humans didn't and couldn't understand at the time. We didn't have a clear idea how planets and orbits worked, so we made up gods that flew through the sky carrying the sun and moon. They were "gap fillers," as it were. The myths themselves aren't to blame for suppressing scientific advancement, it's the people who use those myths to try and prevent it.

Christianity is certainly guilty of that over the course of history, but I'm not aware of cases where Scientology or Nordic mythology did so. At best, you could say that the mere presence of those myths leads fewer people to try and study the science behind the effects the myths "explain," but I don't think that's a terribly significant effect.

Greek mythology was very interested in the persuit of knowledge indeed, and they used gap fillers since they didnt have an explanation at the time, and today we have explanations for a lot of things, people simply choose to ignore instead, or just God as an ever receding gap of knowledge (NDT quote).
But I really only included them as well as I look at them the same way as I do with "modern" religions, they make just as much sense and are just as absurd at explaining the world as the others, thats really all there is to it.
And nordic/greek mythology are obviously not the problem as they are not setting the world back, as they are pretty much dead.


Fridmarr wrote:Well the topic currently being discussed isn't of a scientific nature anyhow. That said Christianity and science aren't at odds nearly as much as people seem to believe.

I would argue that it is atleast a little it related.
Religion have many times claimed they "know" for sure some things.
Like they knew how the earth was flat, or the sun orbits the earth.
Now people believe the earth is 6000years old and that gays having sex will cause the apocalypse.
If they claim to know things that are proved to be bullshit, then why don’t question more of the things they “know”?
Like I said in an earlier post, anyone who choose religion (you cant help if you are brought up religious) simply cant do that without choosing to ignore facts and knowledge to some degree, and this makes me seriously question any scientist who call themselves religious.
Where does it end, what do you choose to accept as true and not?
But yes, the topic isn’t really about how scientific religion is, but if you claim to have all the answers but then change/modernize a religion, then what truth does it hold?
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Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Fridmarr » Tue Jul 24, 2012 10:10 am

Treck wrote:
Fridmarr wrote:Well the topic currently being discussed isn't of a scientific nature anyhow. That said Christianity and science aren't at odds nearly as much as people seem to believe.

I would argue that it is atleast a little it related.
Religion have many times claimed they "know" for sure some things.
Like they knew how the earth was flat, or the sun orbits the earth.
Now people believe the earth is 6000years old and that gays having sex will cause the apocalypse.
If they claim to know things that are proved to be bullshit, then why don’t question more of the things they “know”?
Like I said in an earlier post, anyone who choose religion (you cant help if you are brought up religious) simply cant do that without choosing to ignore facts and knowledge to some degree, and this makes me seriously question any scientist who call themselves religious.
Where does it end, what do you choose to accept as true and not?
But yes, the topic isn’t really about how scientific religion is, but if you claim to have all the answers but then change/modernize a religion, then what truth does it hold?

This is unquestionably one of the most ignorant things I've read on these forums.

Religions are generally philosophical in nature, of course people may take those philosophies and draw scientific conclusions from them, but that is not obligatory.

If you choose to allow the poorest examples to define what religion is and further what that must mean about the people who follow them, then you are literally that which you claim to loathe.
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