LGBT rights discussion

Invisusira's playground

Moderators: Aergis, Invisusira

Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Klaudandus » Mon Jul 30, 2012 8:47 pm

Skye1013 wrote:There are math books that contradict the bible?

Sorry... you can ignore that if you want, since it's not really "on topic."


Yeah, negative numbers only reach to 6000.

*badum tish*

Remark aside, here is the article that mentions only bible-based math books are used in some of these schools. Apparently, set theory is the devil's creation.
http://www.reuters.com/assets/print?aid ... AG20120601
Last edited by Klaudandus on Mon Jul 30, 2012 8:50 pm, edited 2 times in total.
The Element of Forum Hyperbole
Image
---
Flüttershy - Draenei Protection Paladin, Aerie Peak
Klaudandus - BE Protection Paladin, Feathermoon (Semi-retired)
User avatar
Klaudandus
 
Posts: 9340
Joined: Thu Apr 02, 2009 7:08 am
Location: Texas' Armpit

Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Fridmarr » Mon Jul 30, 2012 8:49 pm

Skye1013 wrote:Is there something I'm missing about the 14th that makes it not already apply?

All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the state wherein they reside. No state shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

I don't see anything on there that would lead me to believe it implies "except homosexuals."

I explained this before. Homosexuality is treated as a choice. So you as a homosexual man have the "right" to marry a women. I as a heterosexual man also have the right to marry a women. Neither of us can choose to marry a man, we are therefore treated identically and you have equal protection.

Of course that's under the assumption that sexual orientation is a choice (otherwise it doesn't make much sense), which is how the federal government currently treats it.
Fridmarr
Global Mod
 
Posts: 6460
Joined: Sun Apr 08, 2007 1:03 am

Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Fridmarr » Mon Jul 30, 2012 8:50 pm

Koatanga wrote:
Skye1013 wrote:Is there something I'm missing about the 14th that makes it not already apply?

All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the state wherein they reside. No state shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

I don't see anything on there that would lead me to believe it implies "except homosexuals."

It's not the action of a state, but of a private school. The 14th doesn't apply. However, there is Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964, which is more affirmative in providing rights rather than telling states what they can't do.

The Act prohibits discrimination on the basis of race, color, religion, sex, or national origin. Sexual orientation, as Fridmarr pointed out, is not mentioned.

It is interesting and possibly worth noting that neither is there mention of discrimination on the basis of parentage or legal guardianship. The act specifically states "the individual". Theoretically an organisation could legally discriminate against anyone who has at least one black parent, for example, without discriminating against the individual for being black.

I was referring to the federal dollars, you suggested that a group that discriminates shouldn't receive federal dollars, I was pointing out how legally the supreme court has said otherwise.
Fridmarr
Global Mod
 
Posts: 6460
Joined: Sun Apr 08, 2007 1:03 am

Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Klaudandus » Mon Jul 30, 2012 8:53 pm

Just because its legal, doesn't make it right --- but going beyond this is going down a slippery slope.
The Element of Forum Hyperbole
Image
---
Flüttershy - Draenei Protection Paladin, Aerie Peak
Klaudandus - BE Protection Paladin, Feathermoon (Semi-retired)
User avatar
Klaudandus
 
Posts: 9340
Joined: Thu Apr 02, 2009 7:08 am
Location: Texas' Armpit

Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Skye1013 » Mon Jul 30, 2012 8:54 pm

Klaudandus wrote:
Skye1013 wrote:There are math books that contradict the bible?

Sorry... you can ignore that if you want, since it's not really "on topic."


Yeah, negative numbers only reach to 6000.

*badum tish*

Remark aside, here is the article that mentions only bible-based math books are used in some of these schools. Apparently, set theory is the devil's creation.
http://www.reuters.com/assets/print?aid ... AG20120601

I lol'd.

And I'd imagine there are some non-religious folk that would agree about set theory.
"me no gay, me friends gay, me no like you call me gay, you dumb dumb" -bldavis
"Here are the values that I stand for: I stand for honesty, equality, kindness, compassion, treating people the way you wanna be treated, and helping those in need. To me, those are traditional values. That’s what I stand for." -Ellen Degeneres
"I'm not going to censor myself to comfort your ignorance." -Jon Stewart
Horde: Clopin Dylon Sharkbait Xiaman Metria Metapriest
Alliance: Schatze Aleks Deegee Baileyi Sotanaht Danfer Shazta Rawrsalot Roobyroo
User avatar
Skye1013
Maintankadonor
 
Posts: 3514
Joined: Tue May 18, 2010 5:47 am
Location: JBPH-Hickam, Hawaii

Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Klaudandus » Mon Jul 30, 2012 8:56 pm

Set Theory is doubly evil...

You see, Set is the egyptian god of darkness and chaos; and theory means it's not fact and must be doubted, much like the theory of evolution, so you're better off not teaching it!
The Element of Forum Hyperbole
Image
---
Flüttershy - Draenei Protection Paladin, Aerie Peak
Klaudandus - BE Protection Paladin, Feathermoon (Semi-retired)
User avatar
Klaudandus
 
Posts: 9340
Joined: Thu Apr 02, 2009 7:08 am
Location: Texas' Armpit

Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby bldavis » Mon Jul 30, 2012 8:58 pm

that would make calculus interesting....
Image

Brekkie:Tanks are like shitty DPS. And healers are like REALLY distracted DPS
Amirya:Why yes, your penis is longer than his because you hit 30k dps in the first 10 seconds. But guess what? That raid boss has a dick bigger than your ego.
Flex:I don't make mistakes. I execute carefully planned strategic group wipes.
Levie:(in /g) It's weird, I have a collar and I dont know where I got it from, Worgen are kinky!
Levie:Drunk Lev goes and does what he pleases just to annoy sober Lev.
Sagara:You see, you need to *spread* the bun before you insert the hot dog.
User avatar
bldavis
 
Posts: 6111
Joined: Mon Sep 07, 2009 12:04 pm
Location: Searching for myself. If i get back before I return, please have me stop and wait for myself.

Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Klaudandus » Mon Jul 30, 2012 8:59 pm

Well, calculus was created by a christian heretic (newton), and algebra is obviously an evil muslim creation.

Counting with your fingers is still ok though, since god created your fingers.
The Element of Forum Hyperbole
Image
---
Flüttershy - Draenei Protection Paladin, Aerie Peak
Klaudandus - BE Protection Paladin, Feathermoon (Semi-retired)
User avatar
Klaudandus
 
Posts: 9340
Joined: Thu Apr 02, 2009 7:08 am
Location: Texas' Armpit

Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Skye1013 » Mon Jul 30, 2012 9:01 pm

Anywho...
Fridmarr wrote:Of course that's under the assumption that sexual orientation is a choice (otherwise it doesn't make much sense), which is how the federal government currently treats it.

Just curious if you have any sort of documentation that shows this, or if it's just supposition based on your observations?
"me no gay, me friends gay, me no like you call me gay, you dumb dumb" -bldavis
"Here are the values that I stand for: I stand for honesty, equality, kindness, compassion, treating people the way you wanna be treated, and helping those in need. To me, those are traditional values. That’s what I stand for." -Ellen Degeneres
"I'm not going to censor myself to comfort your ignorance." -Jon Stewart
Horde: Clopin Dylon Sharkbait Xiaman Metria Metapriest
Alliance: Schatze Aleks Deegee Baileyi Sotanaht Danfer Shazta Rawrsalot Roobyroo
User avatar
Skye1013
Maintankadonor
 
Posts: 3514
Joined: Tue May 18, 2010 5:47 am
Location: JBPH-Hickam, Hawaii

Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Fridmarr » Mon Jul 30, 2012 9:02 pm

Klaudandus wrote:Well, calculus was created by a christian heretic (newton), and algebra is obviously an evil muslim creation.

Counting with your fingers is still ok though, since god created your fingers.

Dude, knock it off.
Fridmarr
Global Mod
 
Posts: 6460
Joined: Sun Apr 08, 2007 1:03 am

Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Klaudandus » Mon Jul 30, 2012 9:02 pm

Sorry. I was just cracking some jokes.
The Element of Forum Hyperbole
Image
---
Flüttershy - Draenei Protection Paladin, Aerie Peak
Klaudandus - BE Protection Paladin, Feathermoon (Semi-retired)
User avatar
Klaudandus
 
Posts: 9340
Joined: Thu Apr 02, 2009 7:08 am
Location: Texas' Armpit

Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby bldavis » Mon Jul 30, 2012 9:04 pm

Klaudandus wrote:Sorry. I was just cracking some jokes.

i loled but i guess we were derailing it...
sorry :(
Image

Brekkie:Tanks are like shitty DPS. And healers are like REALLY distracted DPS
Amirya:Why yes, your penis is longer than his because you hit 30k dps in the first 10 seconds. But guess what? That raid boss has a dick bigger than your ego.
Flex:I don't make mistakes. I execute carefully planned strategic group wipes.
Levie:(in /g) It's weird, I have a collar and I dont know where I got it from, Worgen are kinky!
Levie:Drunk Lev goes and does what he pleases just to annoy sober Lev.
Sagara:You see, you need to *spread* the bun before you insert the hot dog.
User avatar
bldavis
 
Posts: 6111
Joined: Mon Sep 07, 2009 12:04 pm
Location: Searching for myself. If i get back before I return, please have me stop and wait for myself.

Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Klaudandus » Mon Jul 30, 2012 9:07 pm

Yeah, my bad. I was being facetious about this to be honest, and just kept rolling with math jokes and their inherent "heathen" nature once I got started.

Didn't really mean to derail, and I hope that since I'm one of the ones that keep posting articles related to LGBT rights is proof enough of that.
The Element of Forum Hyperbole
Image
---
Flüttershy - Draenei Protection Paladin, Aerie Peak
Klaudandus - BE Protection Paladin, Feathermoon (Semi-retired)
User avatar
Klaudandus
 
Posts: 9340
Joined: Thu Apr 02, 2009 7:08 am
Location: Texas' Armpit

Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Fridmarr » Mon Jul 30, 2012 9:18 pm

Skye1013 wrote:Anywho...
Fridmarr wrote:Of course that's under the assumption that sexual orientation is a choice (otherwise it doesn't make much sense), which is how the federal government currently treats it.

Just curious if you have any sort of documentation that shows this, or if it's just supposition based on your observations?

It's not codified into law if that's what you mean. But that's illogical anyhow, we generally don't write laws as negative scenarios. It's not an enumerated protected status (as noted earlier) so it's not going to be treated as one until it is determined to be a status, which I expect would happen if the Supreme court takes it up, or congress passes a law declaring it so.
Fridmarr
Global Mod
 
Posts: 6460
Joined: Sun Apr 08, 2007 1:03 am

Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Skye1013 » Mon Jul 30, 2012 9:30 pm

Fridmarr wrote:
Skye1013 wrote:Anywho...
Fridmarr wrote:Of course that's under the assumption that sexual orientation is a choice (otherwise it doesn't make much sense), which is how the federal government currently treats it.

Just curious if you have any sort of documentation that shows this, or if it's just supposition based on your observations?

It's not codified into law if that's what you mean. But that's illogical anyhow, we generally don't write laws as negative scenarios. It's not an enumerated protected status (as noted earlier) so it's not going to be treated as one until it is determined to be a status, which I expect would happen if the Supreme court takes it up, or congress passes a law declaring it so.

Right, just was curious if you knew of anything that supported the argument that the government believes it's a choice. The lack of it having been brought up to the Supreme court as a protected status only really proves that nothing has seemed worthy enough to appeal it that far (assuming any of the lesser courts have had to deal with any legitimate issues.)

It's not an enumerated protected status

On a related note, MEO (military equal opportunity) doesn't apply to sexual orientation because of this. I found this out at one of my inprocessing briefings for Osan. I asked the rep after about it, and she really wished I'd mentioned something during the presentation, because it was something she had planned to talk about.

So don't you dare make racists/sexist jokes, but if it's at the expense of a homosexual, feel free*.


*This is probably an exaggeration to some extent... but I'd imagine not by much.
"me no gay, me friends gay, me no like you call me gay, you dumb dumb" -bldavis
"Here are the values that I stand for: I stand for honesty, equality, kindness, compassion, treating people the way you wanna be treated, and helping those in need. To me, those are traditional values. That’s what I stand for." -Ellen Degeneres
"I'm not going to censor myself to comfort your ignorance." -Jon Stewart
Horde: Clopin Dylon Sharkbait Xiaman Metria Metapriest
Alliance: Schatze Aleks Deegee Baileyi Sotanaht Danfer Shazta Rawrsalot Roobyroo
User avatar
Skye1013
Maintankadonor
 
Posts: 3514
Joined: Tue May 18, 2010 5:47 am
Location: JBPH-Hickam, Hawaii

Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Klaudandus » Tue Jul 31, 2012 10:57 am

The Element of Forum Hyperbole
Image
---
Flüttershy - Draenei Protection Paladin, Aerie Peak
Klaudandus - BE Protection Paladin, Feathermoon (Semi-retired)
User avatar
Klaudandus
 
Posts: 9340
Joined: Thu Apr 02, 2009 7:08 am
Location: Texas' Armpit

Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Klaudandus » Tue Jul 31, 2012 11:01 am

And tangentially related

Stop the Gay Marriage Bullying
*spoiler* The title is not what you think it means.
The Element of Forum Hyperbole
Image
---
Flüttershy - Draenei Protection Paladin, Aerie Peak
Klaudandus - BE Protection Paladin, Feathermoon (Semi-retired)
User avatar
Klaudandus
 
Posts: 9340
Joined: Thu Apr 02, 2009 7:08 am
Location: Texas' Armpit

Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby bldavis » Tue Jul 31, 2012 1:28 pm

Klaudandus wrote:And tangentially related

Stop the Gay Marriage Bullying
*spoiler* The title is not what you think it means.

honestly i agree
we have a mostly capitalistic free market economy
someone doesnt want to make money through commerce with you, move on to someone who will
if as a business owner you decide that personal beliefs are more important then profits, for one gratz on having the balls to stand up for your beliefs, and two: it is your loss of profits

i am with the writer on this one
just cause someone doesnt want to bake a cake for a gay couple for their wedding, doesnt mean you should picket
it means you should move on to another bakery and use them in the future
Image

Brekkie:Tanks are like shitty DPS. And healers are like REALLY distracted DPS
Amirya:Why yes, your penis is longer than his because you hit 30k dps in the first 10 seconds. But guess what? That raid boss has a dick bigger than your ego.
Flex:I don't make mistakes. I execute carefully planned strategic group wipes.
Levie:(in /g) It's weird, I have a collar and I dont know where I got it from, Worgen are kinky!
Levie:Drunk Lev goes and does what he pleases just to annoy sober Lev.
Sagara:You see, you need to *spread* the bun before you insert the hot dog.
User avatar
bldavis
 
Posts: 6111
Joined: Mon Sep 07, 2009 12:04 pm
Location: Searching for myself. If i get back before I return, please have me stop and wait for myself.

Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Klaudandus » Tue Jul 31, 2012 1:52 pm

I agree as well, to a certain degree, but I think this might be a the case of being right for the wrong reasons.
The Element of Forum Hyperbole
Image
---
Flüttershy - Draenei Protection Paladin, Aerie Peak
Klaudandus - BE Protection Paladin, Feathermoon (Semi-retired)
User avatar
Klaudandus
 
Posts: 9340
Joined: Thu Apr 02, 2009 7:08 am
Location: Texas' Armpit

Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Koatanga » Tue Jul 31, 2012 2:54 pm

bldavis wrote:
Klaudandus wrote:And tangentially related

Stop the Gay Marriage Bullying
*spoiler* The title is not what you think it means.

honestly i agree
we have a mostly capitalistic free market economy
someone doesnt want to make money through commerce with you, move on to someone who will
if as a business owner you decide that personal beliefs are more important then profits, for one gratz on having the balls to stand up for your beliefs, and two: it is your loss of profits

i am with the writer on this one
just cause someone doesnt want to bake a cake for a gay couple for their wedding, doesnt mean you should picket
it means you should move on to another bakery and use them in the future

There's a fundamental difference between not serving a customer who wants something inconsistent with the ideals and standards of the company, and refusing to serve a class of people based on prejucice.

Replace "gay" with "black" and ask yourself if you still believe your statement: "just cause someone doesnt want to bake a cake for a black couple for their wedding, doesnt mean you should picket." In my book, it probably does merit action.

Now, this bakery in particular does serve gay customers, but refuses to create a wedding cake for a gay wedding. That's fine, to me, provided the cake the couple wants has, for instance, two brides or two grooms on it. The cake is the creative product of the bakery, and no one can force them to decorate a cake a certain way.

If a gay couple just wanted a cake with flowers and such on it that is consistent with the work of that bakery, then I would have an issue because nothing about the cake itself is offensive to the owner of the bakery, and denial of service would be solely on the basis of prejudice.

I believe that the bakery is currently within it's legal rights either way - I don't believe it is currently illegal, per the Civil Rights Act, to discriminate on the basis of sexual orientation. But laws don't get changed unless someone challenges the law, which is what pickets like this are doing.

And let's be honest: The Westboro folks picket over reasons more stupid and frivolous than this one. People picket because they get their knickers in a twist, regardless of why it happened.
Un-Retired. Ish. Koatanga, Shapely, Sultry of Greenstone - Dath'Remar
Koatanga
 
Posts: 1656
Joined: Mon Nov 17, 2008 12:46 pm

Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby bldavis » Tue Jul 31, 2012 4:02 pm

if it was a special order specific for the couple, i can stand by the business owners decision
if it was a standard cake, then yeah there is an issue

and honestly, replace gay with blacks and im still ok
replace it with jews or mormoms or w/e and its still a business decision...
i may not agree with the opinions of the owner, but it is their business to run how they want

i will not utilize their services, but i respect them for keeping true to their beliefs
Image

Brekkie:Tanks are like shitty DPS. And healers are like REALLY distracted DPS
Amirya:Why yes, your penis is longer than his because you hit 30k dps in the first 10 seconds. But guess what? That raid boss has a dick bigger than your ego.
Flex:I don't make mistakes. I execute carefully planned strategic group wipes.
Levie:(in /g) It's weird, I have a collar and I dont know where I got it from, Worgen are kinky!
Levie:Drunk Lev goes and does what he pleases just to annoy sober Lev.
Sagara:You see, you need to *spread* the bun before you insert the hot dog.
User avatar
bldavis
 
Posts: 6111
Joined: Mon Sep 07, 2009 12:04 pm
Location: Searching for myself. If i get back before I return, please have me stop and wait for myself.

Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby tinalt » Tue Jul 31, 2012 6:30 pm

It is the bakers right to act the way he did, even though I don't agree with it. But it is also the right of the picketers to voice their opinions on his actions. As long as they are not physically blocking customer access to his shop, they're not doing anything wrong.

Honestly, the only person I see doing anything quesitonable right now is the reporter. Instead of stating the facts of the situation and leaving it up to the audience to decide which side they support, she calls the protesters crude bullies, who are resorting to "intimidation".
User avatar
tinalt
Maintankadonor
 
Posts: 411
Joined: Wed Sep 03, 2008 12:34 pm
Location: South Korea

Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Fridmarr » Tue Jul 31, 2012 7:17 pm

Not that I'm one to defend the media, but she isn't a reporter, she's a political commentator. I know with the sad state of our media it can be hard to tell the difference... So her behavior isn't really questionable.

I don't happen to agree with her, I think it's fine for people to protest a business if they want. That said, the link from her blog post is a very interesting, though at this point not new, discussion.
Fridmarr
Global Mod
 
Posts: 6460
Joined: Sun Apr 08, 2007 1:03 am

Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Fivelives » Wed Aug 01, 2012 7:53 am

"We reserve the right to refuse service to anyone."

Equal opportunity laws don't protect customers - they protect employees. The Americans with Disabilities Act protects customers somewhat, in that it makes businesses do smart business and provide reasonable accommodations for the physically disabled, but equal opportunity ends where a store's property begins.

In other words, if a bakery chooses to refuse service to someone, that's the end of story. And I think I said something to this effect before, but - if you're gay, would you really want a wedding cake baked for you by someone that hates you? If you're black, would you really want to walk into a store that's owned and operated by a high mucketymuck of the KKK?

Not going where you're not wanted is basic common sense, so I guess that's why it's not covered by law. Someone, I forget who, said something about legislating common sense being a piss-poor use of time and taxpayer money, if I'm not mistaken.

So yeah, it pretty much sucks that discrimination exists. I don't like it, but it's something that we have to deal with. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, even if it's reprehensible to others.
- I'm not Jesus, but I can turn water into Kool-Aid.
- A Sergeant in motion outranks an officer who doesn't know what the hell is going on.
- A demolitions specialist at a flat run outranks everybody.
User avatar
Fivelives
 
Posts: 2797
Joined: Sat Feb 16, 2008 7:55 pm

Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby bldavis » Wed Aug 01, 2012 9:29 am

wtf happened to the universe?
i actually agree with fivelives
that was basically what i was trying to say ^
Image

Brekkie:Tanks are like shitty DPS. And healers are like REALLY distracted DPS
Amirya:Why yes, your penis is longer than his because you hit 30k dps in the first 10 seconds. But guess what? That raid boss has a dick bigger than your ego.
Flex:I don't make mistakes. I execute carefully planned strategic group wipes.
Levie:(in /g) It's weird, I have a collar and I dont know where I got it from, Worgen are kinky!
Levie:Drunk Lev goes and does what he pleases just to annoy sober Lev.
Sagara:You see, you need to *spread* the bun before you insert the hot dog.
User avatar
bldavis
 
Posts: 6111
Joined: Mon Sep 07, 2009 12:04 pm
Location: Searching for myself. If i get back before I return, please have me stop and wait for myself.

PreviousNext

Return to Arkham Asylum

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot] and 1 guest

Who is online

In total there are 2 users online :: 1 registered, 0 hidden and 1 guest (based on users active over the past 5 minutes)
Most users ever online was 380 on Tue Oct 14, 2008 6:28 pm

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot] and 1 guest