Politics (formerly Election 2012)

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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Klaudandus » Wed Jun 18, 2014 8:53 am

Darielle wrote:I feel like I just read an Onion article.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/artic ... d=11201442

She admitted stabbing her husband through his heart during the early hours of February 10 last year had fatal consequences but she denied meaning to kill him.

....

Her defence claimed she only wanted to somehow shake her deeply depressed 48-year-old husband out of his funk and make him realise just how "desperate'' their lives had become.

The only issue for the jury was whether she had any murderous intent when she picked up the large kitchen knife and plunged it into his chest.



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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Nooska » Wed Jun 18, 2014 1:40 pm

You know how "possession is nine tenths of the law" applie sin the US ? well for a lot of other western countries (even the ones in the far east O.o), "intent is nine tenths of the law" applies in regards to criminal cases.
Establishing the facts is merely the first part of the process, and in the referred case the facts were not in dispute, so the only (and normally most important) thing for the jury to decide was what she was/is guilty of, and therefore how long a sentence she would/will get.
Was she merely criminally stupid, or did she perpetrate a murder (and if so, was it a premeditated crime or a crime of the moment?)
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Koatanga » Wed Jun 18, 2014 2:52 pm

Nooska wrote:You know how "possession is nine tenths of the law" applie sin the US ? well for a lot of other western countries (even the ones in the far east O.o), "intent is nine tenths of the law" applies in regards to criminal cases.
Establishing the facts is merely the first part of the process, and in the referred case the facts were not in dispute, so the only (and normally most important) thing for the jury to decide was what she was/is guilty of, and therefore how long a sentence she would/will get.
Was she merely criminally stupid, or did she perpetrate a murder (and if so, was it a premeditated crime or a crime of the moment?)

Well, she is from Canterbury, so criminally stupid is a legitimate possibility.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Klaudandus » Wed Jun 18, 2014 5:29 pm

Teaching Creationism As Science Now Banned In All UK Public Schools
http://io9.com/teaching-creationism-as- ... 1592549647
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Skye1013 » Wed Jun 18, 2014 11:00 pm

Koatanga wrote:From the same author, relevant to why people thank them in the form of what what they were actually fighting for:
http://www.stonekettle.com/2014/06/absolutely-nothing.html


Stonekettle wrote:This post has been removed.

Seems people were using his article to gain viewers/make money without his permission... hooray for having to access a third party site just to read the article! -.-
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Nooska » Thu Jun 19, 2014 1:46 am

Klaudandus wrote:Teaching Creationism As Science Now Banned In All UK Public Schools
http://io9.com/teaching-creationism-as- ... 1592549647

yeah, thats going to last a few years, then be struck down by the ECHR, as being in contradiction to article 9 of the european convention on human rights, as abridging the religious rights of the founders of free schools (at least, I'm not sure about academies, not THAT into the UK school system), as well as the schools themselves.
It has previously been established that islamic schools that teach mores and values and knowledge based on the Quran are protected, so actually teaching what the bible says as literal truth (when people actually believe this, and they do), can only be protected as well.
Besides the UK has a habit of losing cases before the ECHR in regards to abridging the freedoms they have been party to setting forth.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Sagara » Thu Jun 19, 2014 2:30 am

Considering the jurisprudence you mentionned, and after a quick read of the mentionned article - what is exactly protected? That Quran values and knowledge may be taught as Science, or may be taught at all? I didn't manage to home in on the ruling you mentionned. Problem is, as read, your example remains fairly nebulous.

After all, teaching Quran values and mores during Religion or even History makes a ton of sense in schools that are supposed to provide context to children's experiences. Actually, adding mores and values to the statement only further muddies the issue, while the real meat of the ruling - Knowledge - only implies without stating outright the "knowledge" is similar to creationism.

In other words, from what I'm seeing from here, you could simply point out that creationism is banned from Science classes, but remains permitted in Religion classes and weasel out scott-free. Because while it wouldn't make sense to completely forbid creationism (the Bible does remain a seminal work for Western Society, after all), it makes a lot more sense that it happens during Religion classes, and that it does not fall under Biology.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Nooska » Thu Jun 19, 2014 12:10 pm

Well the whole religious freedom IS rather nebulous, and while I don't agree with creationism, it being taught in a class on the beginning of the earth as a planet, cannot be barred without infringing on religious freedom (it is their religious belief that that is indeed how it happened).

What we call science is also often based on belief - belief based on observation and what evidence we have, but for instance, some of the things I learned in school in science classes have since been proved wrong, because new evidence was found; the issue, for me, in princple, is that even science is based on belief, first and foremost, the belief in "science" as a concept. This is most often a fallacy of the non-scientists, science is not truth, and the theory of evolution IS a theory (a theory is something other than what most people assume, of course), and while creationism cannot be credited as a theory in a scientific sense, that is not the issue in this case - in this case it is legislation barring the teaching of subject matter based on it being religious in a free school (which is the kind of school that anyone can start to teach in accordance with their beliefs (religious, philosophically, psychological, pedagogical or whatever). And within the Free School system, there is only a requirement of what the kids must know, not how the classes be ordered, nor what the scientific truth is.
In this case they deny funding (which is something thats absolutely needed for a school to function), thus abrdging the rights under article 9, namely paragraph 2, which requires that limitations be "prescribed by law and are necessary in a democratic society in the interests of public safety, for the protection of public order, health or morals, or for the protection of the righst and freedoms of others.", it is prescribed by law, but I dont' see any way for the british government to demonstrate that the abridgement is necessary in a democratic society for any of the mentioned reasons (public safety, public order, public health, public morals or the rights and freedoms of others)

If this was a barring of it in public schools, no issue, the legislative have the power (and responsibility) to regulate how the public school system works.

(The whole mention of islamic schools was only to draw in the fact that the court has already ruled in favor of religious freedom in regards to curriculum in private schools).

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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Fivelives » Thu Jun 19, 2014 12:37 pm

"Science adjusts its views based on what's observed. Faith is the denial of observation so that belief can be preserved."
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Nooska » Thu Jun 19, 2014 12:43 pm

Fivelives wrote:"Science adjusts its views based on what's observed. Faith is the denial of observation so that belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin

Popquotes aside, that sort-of just proved my point in why it will be struck down if brought before the ECHR (also, ID is an adjusted view on creationism, no? *devils advocate*)
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Klaudandus » Thu Jun 19, 2014 1:43 pm

So the plan for the GOP to help the working families is to have them put a crib in their home office.
http://thinkprogress.org/economy/2014/0 ... -families/

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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Brekkie » Thu Jun 19, 2014 8:13 pm

Nooska wrote:
Fivelives wrote:"Science adjusts its views based on what's observed. Faith is the denial of observation so that belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin

Popquotes aside, that sort-of just proved my point in why it will be struck down if brought before the ECHR (also, ID is an adjusted view on creationism, no? *devils advocate*)


No. ID is an adjustment to what legal arguments proved unsuccessful in the courts, NOT an adjustment to the scientific evidence.

ID still has to disregard massive swathes of scientific evidence to even remain coherent.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Koatanga » Thu Jun 19, 2014 10:48 pm

The pop quote I prefer is "Science is true whether you believe in it or not". Creationism doesn't pass that test. Creationism is predicated on a belief in god; for those who don't believe, it makes no sense.

Prevailing scientific theory - that being the formal theory as opposed to the colloquial hunch - is not predicated on any belief. Everyone from every religion is governed by the same universal laws that have existed since the big bang.

I oppose Christian/Judean creationism being taught in schools on two fronts:

1: If you allow the religious beliefs of one religion, you should allow all religions, and there simply isn't time for so many fairy tales to be told in science class.

2: There are avenues outside of school where kids can learn the creation story of their religion. It's not like a Christian child will go through life not hearing about Christian creationism if he's "deprived" of hearing about it in public schools. The reason to include creationism is to cram it down the throats of people who don't follow the Christian god.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Nooska » Fri Jun 20, 2014 2:05 am

Brekkie wrote:
Nooska wrote:
Fivelives wrote:"Science adjusts its views based on what's observed. Faith is the denial of observation so that belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin

Popquotes aside, that sort-of just proved my point in why it will be struck down if brought before the ECHR (also, ID is an adjusted view on creationism, no? *devils advocate*)


No. ID is an adjustment to what legal arguments proved unsuccessful in the courts, NOT an adjustment to the scientific evidence.

ID still has to disregard massive swathes of scientific evidence to even remain coherent.

Ooh, I agree, but it is sitll an adjusted view of creationism based on what was observed in the legal system (yeah, thats a silly adjustment, and I'll agree invalid - I wasn'tactually trying to pass off ID as science, just a cheap point on the simplified definition of science vs faith.

Koatanga wrote:The pop quote I prefer is "Science is true whether you believe in it or not". Creationism doesn't pass that test. Creationism is predicated on a belief in god; for those who don't believe, it makes no sense.

Prevailing scientific theory - that being the formal theory as opposed to the colloquial hunch - is not predicated on any belief. Everyone from every religion is governed by the same universal laws that have existed since the big bang.

I oppose Christian/Judean creationism being taught in schools on two fronts:

1: If you allow the religious beliefs of one religion, you should allow all religions, and there simply isn't time for so many fairy tales to be told in science class.

2: There are avenues outside of school where kids can learn the creation story of their religion. It's not like a Christian child will go through life not hearing about Christian creationism if he's "deprived" of hearing about it in public schools. The reason to include creationism is to cram it down the throats of people who don't follow the Christian god.


Well, the theory of evolution hasn't been proven true (so the true whether you believe it or not quote fails, also, that many people believe it doesn't make it true (Bandwagon fallacy)

As to 1; no, we are NOT talking public schools here, we are talking FREE schools, that anyone can establish to teach in accordance with their values and mores. (For PS I agree, and am miffed that we have "Christianity" as a s subject in PS in denmark -æ sure they cover a little of other religions, but it isn't religion being taught, its Christianity - the argument is that our society is based on Christian mores, I disagree, as does anyone who looks a bit past the last 40 years of history).

As to 2: yes, there is, but that doesn't preclude it from being taught in school - again we are talking about it being barred from FREE SCHOOOLS, not public schools - there we are in agreement.

As to the pop quote, I can turn that completely around without even trying, and its equally true, since it is sitll predicated on belief; "God exists whether you believe it or not" - I can't disprove yours and you can't disprove the one I just made.
As to everyone being governed by the same universal laws (of physics etc, I assume you aren't talking about philosophical laws) that is true*, but we are nowhere near being able to prove or disprove (either way) whether they "just exist" or some"one" (or some"ones", multiple) instituted them.

I will say, it is darned convenient to propose an existance which doesn't interfere directly/physically, so as to be, by definition, undetectable, unless you argue that the very observed physcial laws is that existance's direct 'manipultation'.


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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Sagara » Fri Jun 20, 2014 2:33 am

Nooska wrote:Well, the theory of evolution hasn't been proven true (so the true whether you believe it or not quote fails, also, that many people believe it doesn't make it true (Bandwagon fallacy)

As to 1; no, we are NOT talking public schools here, we are talking FREE schools, that anyone can establish to teach in accordance with their values and mores. (For PS I agree, and am miffed that we have "Christianity" as a s subject in PS in denmark -æ sure they cover a little of other religions, but it isn't religion being taught, its Christianity - the argument is that our society is based on Christian mores, I disagree, as does anyone who looks a bit past the last 40 years of history).

As to 2: yes, there is, but that doesn't preclude it from being taught in school - again we are talking about it being barred from FREE SCHOOOLS, not public schools - there we are in agreement.

As to the pop quote, I can turn that completely around without even trying, and its equally true, since it is sitll predicated on belief; "God exists whether you believe it or not" - I can't disprove yours and you can't disprove the one I just made.
As to everyone being governed by the same universal laws (of physics etc, I assume you aren't talking about philosophical laws) that is true*, but we are nowhere near being able to prove or disprove (either way) whether they "just exist" or some"one" (or some"ones", multiple) instituted them.

I will say, it is darned convenient to propose an existance which doesn't interfere directly/physically, so as to be, by definition, undetectable, unless you argue that the very observed physcial laws is that existance's direct 'manipultation'.


*as far as we know today, statements's truth subject to change pending observations to the contrary


Just a couple points to entertain that "devil's advocate" thing you've got going. Saying evolution isn't proven would be a blatant demonstration of ignorance. It has been proven as is countless times in eugenics, genetics, and countless experiments. It is being continuously proven by our current problem with pesticides and antibiotics resistance.

Trying to pretend evolution is "just a theory" is trying to chop down the first tree that birthed a forest hoping the forest will dissapear - even if one point is contradicted, the greater truth remains.

On the topic of God, I'd like to send you back to "burden of proof reversal". If someone wants to prove God exists, it's their job to prove it. Science doesn't give two shits about God's existence or not. It just keeps on keeping on regardless, so it has no burden of proof in the matter.

So yeah, until creationism can be reliably proven a couple thousand times, and improves the life of billion of people with its applications, it can stay right at home in Religion lessons and stay (emphasis) THE. FUCK. OUT. of sciences classes. Thank you very much.

Noos', you're a pretty smart guy, you've proven that to me enough times. So, if you want to entertain creationist concept to play devil's advocate, I suggest you avoid the most assinine and basic arguments creationists put forth. Those don't challenge much, and typically make the debator look like a complete idiot (see Bill Nye vs Ken Ham)
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