Politics (formerly Election 2012)

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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Brekkie » Sun Jun 15, 2014 5:24 pm

Let's be clear. This is MALAKI's fault.
No one else's.

Not Bush, not Obama, not anyone on Fox News. Malaki.

When the US withdrew, there was no reason why Iraq couldn't have remained stable. Their institutions had enough momentum, and there was democratic buy-in from both the Sunnis and the Shia.

Everyone involved told Maliki to involve the Sunnis in Iraq's political process and he did exactly the opposite; breaking the agreement that put him into office to begin with, jailing his political opponents, referring to Sunnis in general as terrorists, cracking down on protestors, largely shutting the Iraqi parliament out of legislating.

The guy looks like he was doing everything in his power to provoke a sectarian civil war with his actions. This despite the fact that the US told him what would happen if he did it.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Ironshield » Sun Jun 15, 2014 11:33 pm

Koatanga wrote:... Why treat one with such reverence and ignore the other?

Well the main difference is that when I get up in the morning, get dressed and go to work writing code for set top boxes so that people can watch more digital TV, I can be fairly confident no one is going to try kill me for it.

That's not to say all those other people aren't involved in noble and valid work, but they're generally not choosing to risk their lives to do it.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Sagara » Mon Jun 16, 2014 12:37 am

Ironshield wrote:
Koatanga wrote:... Why treat one with such reverence and ignore the other?

Well the main difference is that when I get up in the morning, get dressed and go to work writing code for set top boxes so that people can watch more digital TV, I can be fairly confident no one is going to try kill me for it.

That's not to say all those other people aren't involved in noble and valid work, but they're generally not choosing to risk their lives to do it.


You sir, have never been asked to replace a *spark-spewing* multiplug, while the whole thing was kept live because "agents have to work". Or replacing lighting with a squeaky ladder that's probably seen Vietnam.

On a more serious note, I'm not all that surprised by the respect due to servicemen the world over, it's just the intesity that is fairly unique to the States that is a bit bewildering. I mean, I think secretarie's day is taken more seriously on our side of Atlantis.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Nooska » Mon Jun 16, 2014 12:46 am

Well Iraq was a mess to begin with - a mess made by teh western world by drawing arbitrary lines on a map.

Iraq should really have been 3 nations, a kurdish nation to the north, a sunni nation to the south and a shïite nation in the middle (I may have reversed sunni and shïite) - th efact that it isn't, well thats actually the big mystery now - someone drew the lines without understanding the area (or just not caring for long term stability, it was a british protectorate after all, so as long as they were there, fine). It nearing "too late" but what should have happened after overthrowing Saddam would have been a sensible breakdown of a threeparted country, each area selfgoverning, and then have a "loose" federation type superstructure, not with a presiden to or PM, but with a council of equal representation of the three parts (think the US senate in construction).
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Koatanga » Mon Jun 16, 2014 1:58 am

Ironshield wrote:
Koatanga wrote:... Why treat one with such reverence and ignore the other?

Well the main difference is that when I get up in the morning, get dressed and go to work writing code for set top boxes so that people can watch more digital TV, I can be fairly confident no one is going to try kill me for it.

That's not to say all those other people aren't involved in noble and valid work, but they're generally not choosing to risk their lives to do it.

I guess my point is that many of the 1.4 million people serving in the armed forces don't face more serious injuries than paper cuts, and I sincerely doubt the average military-worshiping American can tell the difference between those who see fire and those who see files.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Brekkie » Mon Jun 16, 2014 9:31 pm

Koatanga wrote:
Ironshield wrote:
Koatanga wrote:... Why treat one with such reverence and ignore the other?

Well the main difference is that when I get up in the morning, get dressed and go to work writing code for set top boxes so that people can watch more digital TV, I can be fairly confident no one is going to try kill me for it.

That's not to say all those other people aren't involved in noble and valid work, but they're generally not choosing to risk their lives to do it.

I guess my point is that many of the 1.4 million people serving in the armed forces don't face more serious injuries than paper cuts, and I sincerely doubt the average military-worshiping American can tell the difference between those who see fire and those who see files.


Yes, but that is a bad argument considering that, without warning, the US could get into a war where nearly all of the armed forces faced real life-threatening danger. And, critically, troops don't get the opportunity to quit or opt out if the danger level suddenly ramps up.

The comparison to a mechanic only works if there was the potential for repairing cars to suddenly get 1000x more dangerous out of nowhere, and mechanics were unable to choose to pursue a different profession if that happened.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Koatanga » Mon Jun 16, 2014 10:02 pm

Brekkie wrote:Yes, but that is a bad argument considering that, without warning, the US could get into a war where nearly all of the armed forces faced real life-threatening danger. And, critically, troops don't get the opportunity to quit or opt out if the danger level suddenly ramps up.

When that happens, I'll understand Americans swooning whenever they catch the scent of camo, but until then I remain baffled.

Do keep in mind it's not the fact of appreciation that befuddles me, but the extent to which Americans fawn all over any serviceman of any variety. They even announce NFL draft picks, as if military service related in any way to football.

Police officers put their lives on the line on a semi-regular basis apprehending dangerous suspects and going to locations that you and I would stay well clear of, but they don't announce NFL draft picks. I can't recall the last time an NFL match was preceded by a salute to cops, or which had a fly-over by police choppers or perhaps formation-driving of squad cars on the field. I've never seen or heard of a person giving up his first-class airline seat to an FBI agent in gratitude for his service, but that can be a dangerous job as well. Homeland Security Day at the ballpark? Never heard of it. It would probably be detrimental to attendance.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby KysenMurrin » Tue Jun 17, 2014 12:19 am

I think there's an element of classism at work there, to be honest. Soldiers are generally perceived as ordinary, working class types - regular people often from the lower rungs of society. People like to champion those kinds of ordinary working man (and it usually is the men we're talking about, here). The other roles you mention feel a little more middle class - particularly things like homeland security and FBI. The masses prefer to fete the people they can see as being just like themselves.

And for police, a lot of people resent them simply because they're in a position of authority over them within their own communty, whereas soldiers do their job in far off places where it doesn't directly connect to them.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Paxen » Tue Jun 17, 2014 2:23 am

KysenMurrin wrote:And for police, a lot of people resent them simply because they're in a position of authority over them within their own communty, whereas soldiers do their job in far off places where it doesn't directly connect to them.


Also, doesn't the police have a bit of a reputation problem in the states these days? There's a line somewhere that divides wether the common reaction to the police is "thank god! the police are coming" or "shit! the cops are here!". My impression is that the US is currently on the wrong side of that line.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Klaudandus » Tue Jun 17, 2014 2:40 pm

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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Amirya » Tue Jun 17, 2014 2:53 pm

Paxen wrote:Also, doesn't the police have a bit of a reputation problem in the states these days? There's a line somewhere that divides wether the common reaction to the police is "thank god! the police are coming" or "shit! the cops are here!". My impression is that the US is currently on the wrong side of that line.

Yes and no.

Some days, it's "hurray! the police are here, they're heroes!" Some days, it's "all cops are pigs! corrupt pigs!"

But that seems to depend on if the person they had to shoot was white (pigs!) or not (heroes!), rich (heroes!) or poor (pigs!), age (the young and the elderly make them pigs, anyone in between makes them heroes), and why they had to shoot (in self defense, it's pigs; in defense of others, it's heroes).
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Darielle » Tue Jun 17, 2014 5:16 pm

Amirya wrote:
Paxen wrote:Also, doesn't the police have a bit of a reputation problem in the states these days? There's a line somewhere that divides wether the common reaction to the police is "thank god! the police are coming" or "shit! the cops are here!". My impression is that the US is currently on the wrong side of that line.

Yes and no.

Some days, it's "hurray! the police are here, they're heroes!" Some days, it's "all cops are pigs! corrupt pigs!"

But that seems to depend on if the person they had to shoot was white (pigs!) or not (heroes!), rich (heroes!) or poor (pigs!), age (the young and the elderly make them pigs, anyone in between makes them heroes), and why they had to shoot (in self defense, it's pigs; in defense of others, it's heroes).


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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Brekkie » Tue Jun 17, 2014 6:37 pm

Koatanga wrote:
Brekkie wrote:Yes, but that is a bad argument considering that, without warning, the US could get into a war where nearly all of the armed forces faced real life-threatening danger. And, critically, troops don't get the opportunity to quit or opt out if the danger level suddenly ramps up.

When that happens, I'll understand Americans swooning whenever they catch the scent of camo, but until then I remain baffled.

Do keep in mind it's not the fact of appreciation that befuddles me, but the extent to which Americans fawn all over any serviceman of any variety. They even announce NFL draft picks, as if military service related in any way to football.

Police officers put their lives on the line on a semi-regular basis apprehending dangerous suspects and going to locations that you and I would stay well clear of, but they don't announce NFL draft picks. I can't recall the last time an NFL match was preceded by a salute to cops, or which had a fly-over by police choppers or perhaps formation-driving of squad cars on the field. I've never seen or heard of a person giving up his first-class airline seat to an FBI agent in gratitude for his service, but that can be a dangerous job as well. Homeland Security Day at the ballpark? Never heard of it. It would probably be detrimental to attendance.


Those elements of American society that are most fawning towards the military tend to be just as reverent towards police officers and firemen. In many parts of America, you DO in fact, see Police Officers given special honors, parades, and bumper stickers. When a cop or a firefighter dies in the line of duty its a big deal.

Skepticism towards the Po-Po is more of a Liberal thing, and they aren't the ones who were praising the military. They are the ones who tend to reference soldiers as being "brainwashed" victims, veterans as "ticking time bombs", and the deployed force as Imperialist baby-killers.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Darielle » Tue Jun 17, 2014 8:15 pm

I feel like I just read an Onion article.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/artic ... d=11201442

She admitted stabbing her husband through his heart during the early hours of February 10 last year had fatal consequences but she denied meaning to kill him.

....

Her defence claimed she only wanted to somehow shake her deeply depressed 48-year-old husband out of his funk and make him realise just how "desperate'' their lives had become.

The only issue for the jury was whether she had any murderous intent when she picked up the large kitchen knife and plunged it into his chest.


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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Koatanga » Tue Jun 17, 2014 9:34 pm

Darielle wrote:I feel like I just read an Onion article.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/artic ... d=11201442

She admitted stabbing her husband through his heart during the early hours of February 10 last year had fatal consequences but she denied meaning to kill him.

....

Her defence claimed she only wanted to somehow shake her deeply depressed 48-year-old husband out of his funk and make him realise just how "desperate'' their lives had become.

The only issue for the jury was whether she had any murderous intent when she picked up the large kitchen knife and plunged it into his chest.



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