Politics (formerly Election 2012)

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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Brekkie » Sun Jun 15, 2014 5:24 pm

Let's be clear. This is MALAKI's fault.
No one else's.

Not Bush, not Obama, not anyone on Fox News. Malaki.

When the US withdrew, there was no reason why Iraq couldn't have remained stable. Their institutions had enough momentum, and there was democratic buy-in from both the Sunnis and the Shia.

Everyone involved told Maliki to involve the Sunnis in Iraq's political process and he did exactly the opposite; breaking the agreement that put him into office to begin with, jailing his political opponents, referring to Sunnis in general as terrorists, cracking down on protestors, largely shutting the Iraqi parliament out of legislating.

The guy looks like he was doing everything in his power to provoke a sectarian civil war with his actions. This despite the fact that the US told him what would happen if he did it.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Ironshield » Sun Jun 15, 2014 11:33 pm

Koatanga wrote:... Why treat one with such reverence and ignore the other?

Well the main difference is that when I get up in the morning, get dressed and go to work writing code for set top boxes so that people can watch more digital TV, I can be fairly confident no one is going to try kill me for it.

That's not to say all those other people aren't involved in noble and valid work, but they're generally not choosing to risk their lives to do it.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Sagara » Mon Jun 16, 2014 12:37 am

Ironshield wrote:
Koatanga wrote:... Why treat one with such reverence and ignore the other?

Well the main difference is that when I get up in the morning, get dressed and go to work writing code for set top boxes so that people can watch more digital TV, I can be fairly confident no one is going to try kill me for it.

That's not to say all those other people aren't involved in noble and valid work, but they're generally not choosing to risk their lives to do it.


You sir, have never been asked to replace a *spark-spewing* multiplug, while the whole thing was kept live because "agents have to work". Or replacing lighting with a squeaky ladder that's probably seen Vietnam.

On a more serious note, I'm not all that surprised by the respect due to servicemen the world over, it's just the intesity that is fairly unique to the States that is a bit bewildering. I mean, I think secretarie's day is taken more seriously on our side of Atlantis.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Nooska » Mon Jun 16, 2014 12:46 am

Well Iraq was a mess to begin with - a mess made by teh western world by drawing arbitrary lines on a map.

Iraq should really have been 3 nations, a kurdish nation to the north, a sunni nation to the south and a shïite nation in the middle (I may have reversed sunni and shïite) - th efact that it isn't, well thats actually the big mystery now - someone drew the lines without understanding the area (or just not caring for long term stability, it was a british protectorate after all, so as long as they were there, fine). It nearing "too late" but what should have happened after overthrowing Saddam would have been a sensible breakdown of a threeparted country, each area selfgoverning, and then have a "loose" federation type superstructure, not with a presiden to or PM, but with a council of equal representation of the three parts (think the US senate in construction).
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Koatanga » Mon Jun 16, 2014 1:58 am

Ironshield wrote:
Koatanga wrote:... Why treat one with such reverence and ignore the other?

Well the main difference is that when I get up in the morning, get dressed and go to work writing code for set top boxes so that people can watch more digital TV, I can be fairly confident no one is going to try kill me for it.

That's not to say all those other people aren't involved in noble and valid work, but they're generally not choosing to risk their lives to do it.

I guess my point is that many of the 1.4 million people serving in the armed forces don't face more serious injuries than paper cuts, and I sincerely doubt the average military-worshiping American can tell the difference between those who see fire and those who see files.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Brekkie » Mon Jun 16, 2014 9:31 pm

Koatanga wrote:
Ironshield wrote:
Koatanga wrote:... Why treat one with such reverence and ignore the other?

Well the main difference is that when I get up in the morning, get dressed and go to work writing code for set top boxes so that people can watch more digital TV, I can be fairly confident no one is going to try kill me for it.

That's not to say all those other people aren't involved in noble and valid work, but they're generally not choosing to risk their lives to do it.

I guess my point is that many of the 1.4 million people serving in the armed forces don't face more serious injuries than paper cuts, and I sincerely doubt the average military-worshiping American can tell the difference between those who see fire and those who see files.


Yes, but that is a bad argument considering that, without warning, the US could get into a war where nearly all of the armed forces faced real life-threatening danger. And, critically, troops don't get the opportunity to quit or opt out if the danger level suddenly ramps up.

The comparison to a mechanic only works if there was the potential for repairing cars to suddenly get 1000x more dangerous out of nowhere, and mechanics were unable to choose to pursue a different profession if that happened.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Koatanga » Mon Jun 16, 2014 10:02 pm

Brekkie wrote:Yes, but that is a bad argument considering that, without warning, the US could get into a war where nearly all of the armed forces faced real life-threatening danger. And, critically, troops don't get the opportunity to quit or opt out if the danger level suddenly ramps up.

When that happens, I'll understand Americans swooning whenever they catch the scent of camo, but until then I remain baffled.

Do keep in mind it's not the fact of appreciation that befuddles me, but the extent to which Americans fawn all over any serviceman of any variety. They even announce NFL draft picks, as if military service related in any way to football.

Police officers put their lives on the line on a semi-regular basis apprehending dangerous suspects and going to locations that you and I would stay well clear of, but they don't announce NFL draft picks. I can't recall the last time an NFL match was preceded by a salute to cops, or which had a fly-over by police choppers or perhaps formation-driving of squad cars on the field. I've never seen or heard of a person giving up his first-class airline seat to an FBI agent in gratitude for his service, but that can be a dangerous job as well. Homeland Security Day at the ballpark? Never heard of it. It would probably be detrimental to attendance.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby KysenMurrin » Tue Jun 17, 2014 12:19 am

I think there's an element of classism at work there, to be honest. Soldiers are generally perceived as ordinary, working class types - regular people often from the lower rungs of society. People like to champion those kinds of ordinary working man (and it usually is the men we're talking about, here). The other roles you mention feel a little more middle class - particularly things like homeland security and FBI. The masses prefer to fete the people they can see as being just like themselves.

And for police, a lot of people resent them simply because they're in a position of authority over them within their own communty, whereas soldiers do their job in far off places where it doesn't directly connect to them.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Paxen » Tue Jun 17, 2014 2:23 am

KysenMurrin wrote:And for police, a lot of people resent them simply because they're in a position of authority over them within their own communty, whereas soldiers do their job in far off places where it doesn't directly connect to them.


Also, doesn't the police have a bit of a reputation problem in the states these days? There's a line somewhere that divides wether the common reaction to the police is "thank god! the police are coming" or "shit! the cops are here!". My impression is that the US is currently on the wrong side of that line.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Klaudandus » Tue Jun 17, 2014 2:40 pm

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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Amirya » Tue Jun 17, 2014 2:53 pm

Paxen wrote:Also, doesn't the police have a bit of a reputation problem in the states these days? There's a line somewhere that divides wether the common reaction to the police is "thank god! the police are coming" or "shit! the cops are here!". My impression is that the US is currently on the wrong side of that line.

Yes and no.

Some days, it's "hurray! the police are here, they're heroes!" Some days, it's "all cops are pigs! corrupt pigs!"

But that seems to depend on if the person they had to shoot was white (pigs!) or not (heroes!), rich (heroes!) or poor (pigs!), age (the young and the elderly make them pigs, anyone in between makes them heroes), and why they had to shoot (in self defense, it's pigs; in defense of others, it's heroes).
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Darielle » Tue Jun 17, 2014 5:16 pm

Amirya wrote:
Paxen wrote:Also, doesn't the police have a bit of a reputation problem in the states these days? There's a line somewhere that divides wether the common reaction to the police is "thank god! the police are coming" or "shit! the cops are here!". My impression is that the US is currently on the wrong side of that line.

Yes and no.

Some days, it's "hurray! the police are here, they're heroes!" Some days, it's "all cops are pigs! corrupt pigs!"

But that seems to depend on if the person they had to shoot was white (pigs!) or not (heroes!), rich (heroes!) or poor (pigs!), age (the young and the elderly make them pigs, anyone in between makes them heroes), and why they had to shoot (in self defense, it's pigs; in defense of others, it's heroes).


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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Brekkie » Tue Jun 17, 2014 6:37 pm

Koatanga wrote:
Brekkie wrote:Yes, but that is a bad argument considering that, without warning, the US could get into a war where nearly all of the armed forces faced real life-threatening danger. And, critically, troops don't get the opportunity to quit or opt out if the danger level suddenly ramps up.

When that happens, I'll understand Americans swooning whenever they catch the scent of camo, but until then I remain baffled.

Do keep in mind it's not the fact of appreciation that befuddles me, but the extent to which Americans fawn all over any serviceman of any variety. They even announce NFL draft picks, as if military service related in any way to football.

Police officers put their lives on the line on a semi-regular basis apprehending dangerous suspects and going to locations that you and I would stay well clear of, but they don't announce NFL draft picks. I can't recall the last time an NFL match was preceded by a salute to cops, or which had a fly-over by police choppers or perhaps formation-driving of squad cars on the field. I've never seen or heard of a person giving up his first-class airline seat to an FBI agent in gratitude for his service, but that can be a dangerous job as well. Homeland Security Day at the ballpark? Never heard of it. It would probably be detrimental to attendance.


Those elements of American society that are most fawning towards the military tend to be just as reverent towards police officers and firemen. In many parts of America, you DO in fact, see Police Officers given special honors, parades, and bumper stickers. When a cop or a firefighter dies in the line of duty its a big deal.

Skepticism towards the Po-Po is more of a Liberal thing, and they aren't the ones who were praising the military. They are the ones who tend to reference soldiers as being "brainwashed" victims, veterans as "ticking time bombs", and the deployed force as Imperialist baby-killers.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Darielle » Tue Jun 17, 2014 8:15 pm

I feel like I just read an Onion article.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/artic ... d=11201442

She admitted stabbing her husband through his heart during the early hours of February 10 last year had fatal consequences but she denied meaning to kill him.

....

Her defence claimed she only wanted to somehow shake her deeply depressed 48-year-old husband out of his funk and make him realise just how "desperate'' their lives had become.

The only issue for the jury was whether she had any murderous intent when she picked up the large kitchen knife and plunged it into his chest.


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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Koatanga » Tue Jun 17, 2014 9:34 pm

Darielle wrote:I feel like I just read an Onion article.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/artic ... d=11201442

She admitted stabbing her husband through his heart during the early hours of February 10 last year had fatal consequences but she denied meaning to kill him.

....

Her defence claimed she only wanted to somehow shake her deeply depressed 48-year-old husband out of his funk and make him realise just how "desperate'' their lives had become.

The only issue for the jury was whether she had any murderous intent when she picked up the large kitchen knife and plunged it into his chest.



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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Klaudandus » Wed Jun 18, 2014 8:53 am

Darielle wrote:I feel like I just read an Onion article.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/artic ... d=11201442

She admitted stabbing her husband through his heart during the early hours of February 10 last year had fatal consequences but she denied meaning to kill him.

....

Her defence claimed she only wanted to somehow shake her deeply depressed 48-year-old husband out of his funk and make him realise just how "desperate'' their lives had become.

The only issue for the jury was whether she had any murderous intent when she picked up the large kitchen knife and plunged it into his chest.



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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Nooska » Wed Jun 18, 2014 1:40 pm

You know how "possession is nine tenths of the law" applie sin the US ? well for a lot of other western countries (even the ones in the far east O.o), "intent is nine tenths of the law" applies in regards to criminal cases.
Establishing the facts is merely the first part of the process, and in the referred case the facts were not in dispute, so the only (and normally most important) thing for the jury to decide was what she was/is guilty of, and therefore how long a sentence she would/will get.
Was she merely criminally stupid, or did she perpetrate a murder (and if so, was it a premeditated crime or a crime of the moment?)
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Koatanga » Wed Jun 18, 2014 2:52 pm

Nooska wrote:You know how "possession is nine tenths of the law" applie sin the US ? well for a lot of other western countries (even the ones in the far east O.o), "intent is nine tenths of the law" applies in regards to criminal cases.
Establishing the facts is merely the first part of the process, and in the referred case the facts were not in dispute, so the only (and normally most important) thing for the jury to decide was what she was/is guilty of, and therefore how long a sentence she would/will get.
Was she merely criminally stupid, or did she perpetrate a murder (and if so, was it a premeditated crime or a crime of the moment?)

Well, she is from Canterbury, so criminally stupid is a legitimate possibility.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Klaudandus » Wed Jun 18, 2014 5:29 pm

Teaching Creationism As Science Now Banned In All UK Public Schools
http://io9.com/teaching-creationism-as- ... 1592549647
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Skye1013 » Wed Jun 18, 2014 11:00 pm

Koatanga wrote:From the same author, relevant to why people thank them in the form of what what they were actually fighting for:
http://www.stonekettle.com/2014/06/absolutely-nothing.html


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Seems people were using his article to gain viewers/make money without his permission... hooray for having to access a third party site just to read the article! -.-
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Nooska » Thu Jun 19, 2014 1:46 am

Klaudandus wrote:Teaching Creationism As Science Now Banned In All UK Public Schools
http://io9.com/teaching-creationism-as- ... 1592549647

yeah, thats going to last a few years, then be struck down by the ECHR, as being in contradiction to article 9 of the european convention on human rights, as abridging the religious rights of the founders of free schools (at least, I'm not sure about academies, not THAT into the UK school system), as well as the schools themselves.
It has previously been established that islamic schools that teach mores and values and knowledge based on the Quran are protected, so actually teaching what the bible says as literal truth (when people actually believe this, and they do), can only be protected as well.
Besides the UK has a habit of losing cases before the ECHR in regards to abridging the freedoms they have been party to setting forth.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Sagara » Thu Jun 19, 2014 2:30 am

Considering the jurisprudence you mentionned, and after a quick read of the mentionned article - what is exactly protected? That Quran values and knowledge may be taught as Science, or may be taught at all? I didn't manage to home in on the ruling you mentionned. Problem is, as read, your example remains fairly nebulous.

After all, teaching Quran values and mores during Religion or even History makes a ton of sense in schools that are supposed to provide context to children's experiences. Actually, adding mores and values to the statement only further muddies the issue, while the real meat of the ruling - Knowledge - only implies without stating outright the "knowledge" is similar to creationism.

In other words, from what I'm seeing from here, you could simply point out that creationism is banned from Science classes, but remains permitted in Religion classes and weasel out scott-free. Because while it wouldn't make sense to completely forbid creationism (the Bible does remain a seminal work for Western Society, after all), it makes a lot more sense that it happens during Religion classes, and that it does not fall under Biology.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Nooska » Thu Jun 19, 2014 12:10 pm

Well the whole religious freedom IS rather nebulous, and while I don't agree with creationism, it being taught in a class on the beginning of the earth as a planet, cannot be barred without infringing on religious freedom (it is their religious belief that that is indeed how it happened).

What we call science is also often based on belief - belief based on observation and what evidence we have, but for instance, some of the things I learned in school in science classes have since been proved wrong, because new evidence was found; the issue, for me, in princple, is that even science is based on belief, first and foremost, the belief in "science" as a concept. This is most often a fallacy of the non-scientists, science is not truth, and the theory of evolution IS a theory (a theory is something other than what most people assume, of course), and while creationism cannot be credited as a theory in a scientific sense, that is not the issue in this case - in this case it is legislation barring the teaching of subject matter based on it being religious in a free school (which is the kind of school that anyone can start to teach in accordance with their beliefs (religious, philosophically, psychological, pedagogical or whatever). And within the Free School system, there is only a requirement of what the kids must know, not how the classes be ordered, nor what the scientific truth is.
In this case they deny funding (which is something thats absolutely needed for a school to function), thus abrdging the rights under article 9, namely paragraph 2, which requires that limitations be "prescribed by law and are necessary in a democratic society in the interests of public safety, for the protection of public order, health or morals, or for the protection of the righst and freedoms of others.", it is prescribed by law, but I dont' see any way for the british government to demonstrate that the abridgement is necessary in a democratic society for any of the mentioned reasons (public safety, public order, public health, public morals or the rights and freedoms of others)

If this was a barring of it in public schools, no issue, the legislative have the power (and responsibility) to regulate how the public school system works.

(The whole mention of islamic schools was only to draw in the fact that the court has already ruled in favor of religious freedom in regards to curriculum in private schools).

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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Fivelives » Thu Jun 19, 2014 12:37 pm

"Science adjusts its views based on what's observed. Faith is the denial of observation so that belief can be preserved."
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Nooska » Thu Jun 19, 2014 12:43 pm

Fivelives wrote:"Science adjusts its views based on what's observed. Faith is the denial of observation so that belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin

Popquotes aside, that sort-of just proved my point in why it will be struck down if brought before the ECHR (also, ID is an adjusted view on creationism, no? *devils advocate*)
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