Politics (formerly Election 2012)

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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Brekkie » Tue May 13, 2014 1:32 pm

So I had my interview today. They want to hire me as a full-time Field Organizer. I'd be in charge of managing a network of volunteers for the southern quarter of the state.

The part I find most interesting is the data-driven system they have for targeting specific voters. There is a whole slew of proprietary software the Democratic party uses which is really super cool.

They are going to consult with their Campaign Manager and make me an offer as far as pay. I'm attending a briefing session next week, and if I accept their offer I'd start at the end of the month.

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The Curt Schilling fiasco is a good line of attack: http://blogs.wsj.com/moneybeat/2014/05/ ... -on-bonds/

Specially if lawmakers decide to default and get a huge rate hike rather than pay the loan at face value.

The whole thing sucked, that's fer sure.


All three of the Democratic candidates agree the state should honor its debts and not default. The Republicans favor defaulting on the bonds, which would result in a credit downgrade for the state, but what they think isn't important. Whoever wins the Democratic primary will end up as Governor.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Klaudandus » Thu May 15, 2014 10:38 am

http://www.thelocal.de/20140514/one-in- ... ti-semitic

For the record, these are the questions, from their own website.
1. Jews are more loyal to Israel than to [this country/the countries they live in]
2. Jews have too much power in international financial markets
3. Jews have too much control over global affairs
4. Jews think they are better than other people
5. Jews have too much control over the global media
6. Jews are responsible for most of the world's wars
7. Jews have too much power in the business world
8. Jews don't care what happens to anyone but their own kind
9. People hate Jews because of the way Jews behave
10. Jews have too much control over the United States government
11. Jews still talk too much about what happened to them in the Holocaust

I'm jewish and I am borderline anti-semitic according to their poll. >=/

What a load of rubbish.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Koatanga » Thu May 15, 2014 5:47 pm

Klaudandus wrote:http://www.thelocal.de/20140514/one-in-four-germans-deemed-anti-semitic

For the record, these are the questions, from their own website.
1. Jews are more loyal to Israel than to [this country/the countries they live in]
2. Jews have too much power in international financial markets
3. Jews have too much control over global affairs
4. Jews think they are better than other people
5. Jews have too much control over the global media
6. Jews are responsible for most of the world's wars
7. Jews have too much power in the business world
8. Jews don't care what happens to anyone but their own kind
9. People hate Jews because of the way Jews behave
10. Jews have too much control over the United States government
11. Jews still talk too much about what happened to them in the Holocaust

I'm jewish and I am borderline anti-semitic according to their poll. >=/

What a load of rubbish.

So basically you think you're better than the pollsters. Tick off #4 please :)

P.S. Don menschun ze holocaust.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Fridmarr » Thu May 15, 2014 8:21 pm

Which of those would you answer "yes" to?
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Io.Draco » Thu May 15, 2014 11:54 pm

How are these questions "Anti-Semitic" I could see a few of them, but the whole package? Seriously.

For me personally I'd answer yes to 1, 3, 9, 10 and especially fucking 11.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Koatanga » Fri May 16, 2014 1:20 am

Personally, I'd answer "no" to all of them, but I'm in New Zealand, which isn't really known for its large Jewish population - or any religious group for that matter. Which in some ways is a pity - we need to import some Poles to make some decent sausage - this British crap is rubbish.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Sagara » Fri May 16, 2014 1:32 am

From here in Belgium, I had a smiliar reaction of "meh", with maybe an exception for 8. We do happen to have a much more heterogenous population, so it's not like there are no Jews around - hell I remember a Jewish school right next to my kindergarden, with armed guards, sniper's dens, the whole shebang.
I'm guessing two root causes is that both communities are too busy crapping on each other and the muslims to bother looking for another scapegoat.

Still, it's funny how perception can drastically change from place to place, even with the Internet slashing right through most of the distance in communication.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby KysenMurrin » Fri May 16, 2014 1:51 am

All the questions are examples of racist stereotypes, so the questions are seeing which racist stereotypes you believe. Even if you're anti-Israel (for questions 3 and 10), if you don't see a problem with the fact those statements address a completely generalised group of "Jews" then you maybe need to take some time to evaluate your feelings on this. (Though there's obviously a strong connection, "Israel" is not all "Jews" and "Jews" does not always mean "Israel".)

Honestly, in a poll like that I think a lot of the positive responses just come from people not thinking deeply enough about what they actually mean, not questioning their automatic response.

But answering "yes" to number 9 is pretty much just flat out saying "Yes, I am a racist."
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Sagara » Fri May 16, 2014 2:26 am

You caught me in a thought-experiment: replace "Jew" with "Muslim" and throw this in Europe.
Hell, I'll push harder and replace with muslim racial stereotyping:

1. Muslims are more loyal to their country of origin than to [this country/the countries they live in]
2. Criminals are Muslim more often than not
3. Muslims have it too easy to enter and live in [this country]
4. Muslims think they are better than other people
5. Muslims want too much control over what's acceptable in the media and the general public
6. Muslims are responsible for most of the world's wars
7. Muslims have too much power in the oil markets
8. Muslims don't care what happens to anyone but their own kind
9. People hate Muslims because of the way Muslims behave
10. Muslims have too much influence over the European government
11. Muslims still talk too much about what happened to them since Israel's founding

Even when many of those are pure racial stereotyping, I *SHUDDER* at the results.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby KysenMurrin » Fri May 16, 2014 5:01 am

The Muslims + oil markets question is another loaded one similar to the Jews + global affairs question (though the Jewish one is using the word "control" to imply Zionist conspiracy, a specific thing that doesn't really have a parallel in Islamophobia). A lot of the world's oil is in Muslim countries, therefore Muslims have very high influence, so the question catches people out. Then again, the implication is that somehow the fact that the people are Muslim is the objectionable thing, so the question remains valid for the purpose.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Sagara » Fri May 16, 2014 6:07 am

KysenMurrin wrote:The Muslims + oil markets question is another loaded one similar to the Jews + global affairs question (though the Jewish one is using the word "control" to imply Zionist conspiracy, a specific thing that doesn't really have a parallel in Islamophobia). A lot of the world's oil is in Muslim countries, therefore Muslims have very high influence, so the question catches people out. Then again, the implication is that somehow the fact that the people are Muslim is the objectionable thing, so the question remains valid for the purpose.


Wasn't really planning to reach that far with similarities, honestly. Glad I got a lucky accident.
I'm idly considering putting this one somewhere out there to "test" people, but I'm afraid I'd get to see straight-on some darker aspects of my loved ones.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Io.Draco » Fri May 16, 2014 6:30 am

f you don't see a problem with the fact those statements address a completely generalised group of "Jews" then you maybe need to take some time to evaluate your feelings on this


Generalizations exist because world events are not influenced by all people, but rather a select few, be them politicians, religious leaders, scientists, generals and so forth. It has always been so and will continue like this.

If a poll deems you anti-Semitic for judging a group of people based on the actions of a very visible minority that makes the decisions or heavily influences them then it's just a load of bilge.

Jews in the world are represented by one country: Israel, and Israel has an elected right wing government that not only has a lot of influence and power on regional affairs but also a very loud entitled mouth using the Holocaust as justifying for everything they are doing right now.

That many Jews in Israel and the rest of the world may not be in favor of what's going on doesn't matter at all unless they act against it, same goes with other situations.

Following World War 2 the Germans where held to be collectively responsible for the actions of a minority during World War 2 that committed the atrocities and to this day, despite only a fraction of people still living from that time, they are still held responsible for it. Why should Jews, especially those in Israel, be treated differently? Why should the Russians be excused for Soviet crimes during and after World War 2?

Collective punishments still exist to this day in one form or another for the actions of a few, generally they take the form of economic sanctions that can severely affect life of ordinary people not involved in the decision making.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Klaudandus » Fri May 16, 2014 6:39 am

The questions are loaded, which is why I consider this poll shenanigans.

And yeah, I'd agree with Io.Draco on which to tick yes, and I'd add 4 due to my extended family... and by the ADL standards, if you score 6 out 11, then you're anti-semitic.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Klaudandus » Fri May 16, 2014 11:10 am

Sagara wrote:You caught me in a thought-experiment: replace "Jew" with "Muslim" and throw this in Europe.
Hell, I'll push harder and replace with muslim racial stereotyping:

1. Muslims are more loyal to their country of origin than to [this country/the countries they live in]
2. Criminals are Muslim more often than not
3. Muslims have it too easy to enter and live in [this country]
4. Muslims think they are better than other people
5. Muslims want too much control over what's acceptable in the media and the general public
6. Muslims are responsible for most of the world's wars
7. Muslims have too much power in the oil markets
8. Muslims don't care what happens to anyone but their own kind
9. People hate Muslims because of the way Muslims behave
10. Muslims have too much influence over the European government
11. Muslims still talk too much about what happened to them since Israel's founding

Even when many of those are pure racial stereotyping, I *SHUDDER* at the results.


it also works with african americans and gays... =/
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Sagara » Fri May 16, 2014 1:34 pm

Depends on location, I guess.

Anti-gay sentiment is really fairly low and less agressive politically on this side of the Pond. And whelp, ain't that many afro-american :) And here in Belgium at least, we've had africans from our old colony in Congo for so long we don't really think much of their presence.

A bit like the Italians, which are surprisingly numerous.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Fivelives » Mon May 19, 2014 5:46 pm

There's a Facebook page that's fairly good, called Ranger Up!

They came up with an awesome way of describing the current Phoenix, AZ, VA hospital kerfuffle: "The Phoenix VA has recently announced that they're helping veterans transition from Phoenix, Arizona, to Valhalla."

I about died laughing, because it was so unexpected.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Klaudandus » Mon May 19, 2014 6:51 pm

Ok, that was pretty good
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Brekkie » Mon May 19, 2014 10:31 pm

Interesting things I have learned so far working for a political campaign:

-A surprisingly large number of people will register for the opposite party temporarily in order to vote in the "enemy" primary election and sabotage their party by nominating a less competitive candidate. This happens mostly in election years where a member of your favored party is the incumbent. This may even account for a significant portion of the statistical advantage incumbents have.


-Big Data Get-Out-The-Vote software knows EVERYTHING about EVERYONE oh my God...


-The Democratic Party is much better than the Republican party at analytical voter targeting mostly because they have much more practice. Historically, the type of demographics which tend to vote Democrat are generally less likely to actually vote (e.g. young college students, single moms, English-as-a-second-language speakers), so the Democratic party has always had to work hard to motivate its base to show up to the polls. As a result, they got very, very good at figuring out what motivates people to do so, and how best to effectively separate out and target the voters who would be a good investment to try and focus on.

The Republican party, by contrast, has simply not had to deal with this problem to nearly the same extent until quite recently. Their favored demographics tended to be pretty reliable voters (e.g. old retirees, religious people who go to the polls together with their whole church group, married middle class white people, etc), so historically the GOP has spent most of its energy focusing not on getting out the vote (mostly because there was not that much extra vote for them to get out), but on persuading undecided independent voters to their side. This explains why the Republican party tends to be much better than the Democratic party at communication and messaging strategies. They are much more adept at compelling storytelling and catchy sound bites. Their media machine generally has the initiative and sets the narrative, while the Democratic party's media tends to be reactive.

What's interesting now is that, because of demographic shifts in the U.S., the Republicans have to learn how to do grassroots get-out-the-vote operations too, and they are scrambling to catch up to the Democrats in that regard. The need every little bit they can get, and their old advantages are no longer enough to counter the Democratic field operation.


-One thing that surprised me (though it shouldn't have, in retrospect) is how little the REASONS people like your candidate actually matter, as long as they support your candidate your job is done and you move on. What this results in is a very large proportion of the people who ultimately vote for your candidate are doing so for the "wrong" reasons.
Out of Americans who were able to express a firmly held political position on an issue, only 70% were able to accurately identify the party which corresponded to that position. Think about that; that's only 20% better than guessing a party at random.
So what you end up with is a lot of people who are absolutely zealous about a particular issue, and absolutely certain that your candidate shares their position and plan on voting for him because of it, when in reality they are completely mistaken.

This was a huge mental stumbling block for me.
I have encountered voters who totally misunderstand the basic facts about an issue, and I would want very badly to correct them or direct them to where they can find more information, but would have to stop myself because challenging them in any way didn't make sense, strategically. They were a "won" vote, and continuing to talk to them could only lose them.
Similarly, I've encountered voters who believed my candidate held a position that he really did not, but that mistaken belief was the main reason the voter supported my candidate. What do you do? It seems somehow dishonest to just let this slide. And indeed, when the opposite situation occurs, we are swift to correct it.

I guess what I found surprising was that, in politics, it's NOT so much that "the truth doesn't matter", it's that:
the truth is only important...
a)for people who don't already support you
b)if they are the kind of people who are convinced by the truth (surprisingly uncommon)
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby fuzzygeek » Mon May 19, 2014 11:07 pm

I am enjoying this process immensely. There's a book and major hollywood motion picture in this. Again.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Klaudandus » Tue May 20, 2014 4:20 am

http://www.macleans.ca/politics/america-dumbs-down/
The U.S. is being overrun by a wave of anti-science, anti-intellectual thinking. Has the most powerful nation on Earth lost its mind?
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Nooska » Tue May 20, 2014 11:55 am

@Brekkie; so what you are finding is that Churchill is Right in 2 things.

1. Democracy is the worst form of government there is (..... apart from all the others we have tried)
2. The best argument against democracy is a 5 minute conversation with the average voter.


And also; yes, I have to agree about dishonesty (or the feeling of such) when talking with voters.
I've mainly done it while presenting myself on the street handing out pamphlets - I find the idea of democracy needs honesty, so I'd rather assist someone in finding out who they agree with, than snagging the vote for myself - which is, as you say, strategically unsound - I have the luxury of being able to not care, as I am the politician - you don't have that liberty, as you are being paid by the politician to do a certain job - I feel with you.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Fivelives » Wed May 21, 2014 8:16 pm

Brekkie wrote:-A surprisingly large number of people will register for the opposite party temporarily in order to vote in the "enemy" primary election and sabotage their party by nominating a less competitive candidate. This happens mostly in election years where a member of your favored party is the incumbent. This may even account for a significant portion of the statistical advantage incumbents have.


I thought everybody did this? I know my grandmother did it back before I cared about politics and realized how stupid/unfair it was.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Nooska » Thu May 22, 2014 2:19 am

Fivelives wrote:
Brekkie wrote:-A surprisingly large number of people will register for the opposite party temporarily in order to vote in the "enemy" primary election and sabotage their party by nominating a less competitive candidate. This happens mostly in election years where a member of your favored party is the incumbent. This may even account for a significant portion of the statistical advantage incumbents have.


I thought everybody did this? I know my grandmother did it back before I cared about politics and realized how stupid/unfair it was.


This is also almost always the reason "you" end up with choosing the lesser of 2 evils.

Look to europe, do in-party primaries where MEMBERS of the parties choose the candidates for the parties, and the general voters choose between the candidates that the parties have chosen to represent them.
To prevent the above situation, have a waiting period from membership till you can vote in the candidate selections.

(I can give you the whole process we use for selecting candidates for parliament, step by step)

What the US really needs is voting reform (which imnsho should also include opening the field to allow a better chance for outside candidates to get elected if they have popular support - be that technical election coalitions or runoff voting in a two round system (or even more drastic reform, but that, I think, is unrealistic).
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Io.Draco » Thu May 22, 2014 10:42 am

To be honest at this point I think the only thing that's going to change the politics of US is a bloody revolution.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Nooska » Thu May 22, 2014 11:32 am

Io.Draco wrote:To be honest at this point I think the only thing that's going to change the politics of US is a bloody revolution.


Might have been somewhere else, but I seem to remember quoting part of the declaration of indepenence in almost exactly that discussion not that long ago *thinks*


Okay, I think that was on twitch...

--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it [...] But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.

(Emphasis mine)
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