Remove Advertisements

Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Invisusira's playground

Moderators: Aergis, Invisusira

Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Io.Draco » Tue May 06, 2014 10:02 am

Civil war is anything but civil.


Of course, but how one handles it is paramount to achieving stability after that.

Vladimir Putin, for one. Case in point, Second Chechen War.


I would hardly call the Chechens his people honestly. They had been independent for close to a decade, had fought and won a war with Russia in 94-96 and had gone into complete chaos following that war.

That said Chechnya would still have fallen into chaos if not for the fact Putin realized what was needed to stabilize, and stabilize it he did: While America's policies in Iraq and Afghanistan were failing hard Chechnya became more and more peaceful and stable. He also spent about 60 billion to rebuild it following the war and was smart enough to realize only a local could hold the peace so to speak.

In contrast to that what's happening in E. Ukraine could have been avoided.
User avatar
Io.Draco
 
Posts: 1637
Joined: Tue Sep 18, 2007 1:33 am

Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Nooska » Tue May 06, 2014 11:40 am

Io.Draco wrote:In contrast to that what's happening in E. Ukraine could have been avoided.

How?

You keep saying this, but the only option you've give is for the acknowledged governement of a sovereign state (Ukraine) to not claim the state's boundaries and sovereigncy.
Main Characters:
Nooska, Blood Elf BM/SV Hunter on Argent Dawn (EU)
Morosin, Bloody freezing orc death knight on Argent Dawn (EU)
Niisca, Shady forsaken "priest" on Argent Dawn (EU)

Keeper Emeritus of the BM hunters guide on Elitist Jerks and the wowhead version untill patch 5.3.
User avatar
Nooska
 
Posts: 1508
Joined: Sun Nov 27, 2011 10:55 am

Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Klaudandus » Tue May 06, 2014 1:33 pm

http://www.forbes.com/sites/paulroderic ... nnexation/

To make sure no one misses this:

Official Kremlin results: 97 percent of polled voters for annexation, turnout 83 percent, and 82 percent of total Crimean population voting in favor.

President’s Human Rights Council mid-point estimate: 55 percent of polled voters for annexation, turnout 40 percent, 22.5 percent of total Crimean population voting in favor.

A member of the Human Rights Council, Svetlana Gannushkina, talked about election fraud on Kanal 24 (as replayed on Ukrainian television), declaring that the Crimean vote “discredited Russia more than could be dreamed up by a foreign agent.”
The Element of Forum Hyperbole
Image
---
Flüttershy - Draenei Protection Paladin, Aerie Peak
Klaudandus - BE Protection Paladin, Feathermoon (Semi-retired)
User avatar
Klaudandus
 
Posts: 11100
Joined: Thu Apr 02, 2009 7:08 am
Location: Texas' Armpit

Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Koatanga » Tue May 06, 2014 2:31 pm

Klaudandus wrote:http://www.forbes.com/sites/paulroderickgregory/2014/05/05/putins-human-rights-council-accidentally-posts-real-crimean-election-results-only-15-voted-for-annexation/

To make sure no one misses this:

Official Kremlin results: 97 percent of polled voters for annexation, turnout 83 percent, and 82 percent of total Crimean population voting in favor.

President’s Human Rights Council mid-point estimate: 55 percent of polled voters for annexation, turnout 40 percent, 22.5 percent of total Crimean population voting in favor.

A member of the Human Rights Council, Svetlana Gannushkina, talked about election fraud on Kanal 24 (as replayed on Ukrainian television), declaring that the Crimean vote “discredited Russia more than could be dreamed up by a foreign agent.”

For some perspective:

2000 US Presidential election:

47.87% of popular vote for Bush, turnout 50.3%, 24% of total eligible voters voting for Bush. It was enough to elect a President.

Also keep in mind that for a 95% confidence level and a margin of error of 1% you only need to poll 9500 people out of a population of 1 million. 55% of 40 percent of registered voters gives you a confidence interval of around 0.1 at 95% confidence level. It's statistically significant.

I am not saying the Kremlin results are accurate, but even if you take the Human Rights Council vote as gospel (and as they say, figures don't lie but liars can figure), it's still a majority vote with a very high degree of statistical confidence.
Retired. Koatanga, Shapely, Sultry, Doominatrix of Greenstone - Dath'Remar
Koatanga
 
Posts: 1984
Joined: Mon Nov 17, 2008 12:46 pm

Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby KysenMurrin » Tue May 06, 2014 3:07 pm

...If you assume turnout was evenly spread among demographics, and ignore the fact that a significant opposed minority actively boycotted the poll.
I don't play WoW any more.
Donnan - Nangun - Kysen - Kysen - Mardun - Timkins

Mostly-Book Blog.
KysenMurrin
 
Posts: 6831
Joined: Thu Jun 26, 2008 6:37 am
Location: UK

Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Io.Draco » Tue May 06, 2014 3:52 pm

KysenMurrin wrote:...If you assume turnout was evenly spread among demographics, and ignore the fact that a significant opposed minority actively boycotted the poll.


Even if every Tatar boycotted it, which is nonsense, you would still be able to get the results. As for the ethnic Ukranians living in Crimea most are in favor of being in Russia.

How?

You keep saying this, but the only option you've give is for the acknowledged governement of a sovereign state (Ukraine) to not claim the state's boundaries and sovereigncy.


Before Crimea they could have worked to assure the East they will respect their ethnic rights, instead they spat on them with the Rada vote. After Crimea they could have sat down and negotiated with people to see what they want: Namely greater autonomy and federalization, instead they branded them terrorists.

There's plenty of things they could have done but they didn't.

Klaudandus: Oh let's quote a neo-conservative on Forbes who has made Putin to be akin to the devil who is citing a UKRANIAN news post. Just reading who wrote that article is enough for me to dismiss him, and you should to if you read any of his other articles. Also even if the report existed then it just an estimate. How many of the human rights council even gave a damn to send observers during the vote?

You don't think 80% of people can go vote when the very future of their country is on the line? Presidential elections are one thing and most people don't think a change of leadership will matter, joining another country? It sure as fuck matters.

Look at South Sudan turnout.
User avatar
Io.Draco
 
Posts: 1637
Joined: Tue Sep 18, 2007 1:33 am

Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Brekkie » Tue May 06, 2014 5:08 pm

fuzzygeek wrote:http://ktla.com/2014/05/05/rialto-assignment-asking-to-students-to-question-holocaust-to-be-revised/#axzz30sp8CKDK

Are you serial?

Interim Superintendent Mohammad Z. Islam was set to talk with administrators to “assure that any references to the holocaust ‘not occurring’ will be stricken on any current or future Argumentative Research assignments,” a statement from district spokeswoman Syeda Jafri read.


Optics on this are amazing. I thought it was an Onion article.


That article pissed me off because it strongly implied that the holocaust-denial assignment was somehow connected to the Common Core. Which is totally false.
Theckhd wrote:big numbers are the in-game way of expressing that Brekkie's penis is huge.
Brekkie
 
Posts: 953
Joined: Mon Aug 02, 2010 7:44 pm

Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Koatanga » Tue May 06, 2014 5:15 pm

KysenMurrin wrote:...If you assume turnout was evenly spread among demographics, and ignore the fact that a significant opposed minority actively boycotted the poll.


Boycotting a poll - are they unclear of the concept of democracy? Not being facetious, I just want to know why they would cede the election result to the opposition like that. "I'm opposed to what they want to do so I'm going to make them win the poll." Lolwut? Makes no sense to me whatsoever.
Retired. Koatanga, Shapely, Sultry, Doominatrix of Greenstone - Dath'Remar
Koatanga
 
Posts: 1984
Joined: Mon Nov 17, 2008 12:46 pm

Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Koatanga » Tue May 06, 2014 5:32 pm

Brekkie wrote:That article pissed me off because it strongly implied that the holocaust-denial assignment was somehow connected to the Common Core. Which is totally false.

For what it's worth I didn't understand it that way at all. What I got from the article is that Common Core requires students to make and defend an argument, which I am completely fine with as I believe critical thinking should be taught in schools.

What offended me was purely the subject chosen by the district. What idiot decided to make it about religion? The topic is rich in subjects from "is the moon landing faked" to "who really shot Kennedy" to the existence of one of a plethora of cryptids to life on other planets.
Retired. Koatanga, Shapely, Sultry, Doominatrix of Greenstone - Dath'Remar
Koatanga
 
Posts: 1984
Joined: Mon Nov 17, 2008 12:46 pm

Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby KysenMurrin » Wed May 07, 2014 12:37 am

Koatanga wrote:
KysenMurrin wrote:...If you assume turnout was evenly spread among demographics, and ignore the fact that a significant opposed minority actively boycotted the poll.


Boycotting a poll - are they unclear of the concept of democracy? Not being facetious, I just want to know why they would cede the election result to the opposition like that. "I'm opposed to what they want to do so I'm going to make them win the poll." Lolwut? Makes no sense to me whatsoever.

Participation conveys legitimacy. They weren't protesting the cause, they were protesting the process.
I don't play WoW any more.
Donnan - Nangun - Kysen - Kysen - Mardun - Timkins

Mostly-Book Blog.
KysenMurrin
 
Posts: 6831
Joined: Thu Jun 26, 2008 6:37 am
Location: UK

Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Klaudandus » Wed May 07, 2014 5:59 pm

The Element of Forum Hyperbole
Image
---
Flüttershy - Draenei Protection Paladin, Aerie Peak
Klaudandus - BE Protection Paladin, Feathermoon (Semi-retired)
User avatar
Klaudandus
 
Posts: 11100
Joined: Thu Apr 02, 2009 7:08 am
Location: Texas' Armpit

Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby fuzzygeek » Wed May 07, 2014 6:10 pm

Image

The White House's ability to conduct foreign policy via hash tags is nothing less than astounding.
Image
User avatar
fuzzygeek
Maintankadonor
 
Posts: 5130
Joined: Wed Aug 01, 2007 1:58 pm

Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Fivelives » Wed May 07, 2014 6:29 pm

To be fair, the first lady has zero power other than the president's ear (and bed).
- I'm not Jesus, but I can turn water into Kool-Aid.
- A Sergeant in motion outranks an officer who doesn't know what the hell is going on.
- A demolitions specialist at a flat run outranks everybody.
User avatar
Fivelives
 
Posts: 3108
Joined: Sat Feb 16, 2008 7:55 pm

Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Nooska » Fri May 09, 2014 3:15 am

Fivelives wrote:To be fair, the first lady has zero power other than the president's ear (and bed).

Zero constitutional power, but lets be fair here, constitutional power isn't all that important in regards to policy; its the ability to formulate an argument and present it in a way that persuades people. If the first lady wanted to say something, which news agancey would turn her down, just because she formally isn't anything but someone that lives in the white house and shares the bed of the president?

Media access is more important these days than formal power; and not being a politician means you don't get bogged down in actual partisanship when talking to media.

And while it may be a little tame for a lot of political observers (like most anyone in this thread), don't ignore the fact that its a very acute statement, very precise, and very sympathetic - why do much more than that? this lets the story spin instead, and gathers a lot more suppoort than any 20 minute talking head interview with details etc - this is what the first lady position can be VERY good at.


(and on the ukraninan discussion, I give up; Io.Draco - I'll discount you as a troll for the rest of this discussion - either you have no grasp on the realities of the situation or you are actively taking a side and not discussing but propagandizing. (or as suggested earlier trying to bait out sensitive information, but like previously your long association with this board makes me question that too much to run with it, so just mentioning it for completenss sake))
Main Characters:
Nooska, Blood Elf BM/SV Hunter on Argent Dawn (EU)
Morosin, Bloody freezing orc death knight on Argent Dawn (EU)
Niisca, Shady forsaken "priest" on Argent Dawn (EU)

Keeper Emeritus of the BM hunters guide on Elitist Jerks and the wowhead version untill patch 5.3.
User avatar
Nooska
 
Posts: 1508
Joined: Sun Nov 27, 2011 10:55 am

Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Fivelives » Fri May 09, 2014 5:47 am

The media can't exactly do anything to get those kidnapped kids back, and the US has a longstanding policy of refusing to negotiate with terrorists. So again, Mrs. Obama has roughly zero power in this situation.

And what do "normal" people do when they have zero power? They go to twitter and post a hashtag. Or they go to facebook and post a "share this status if..." This is the same thing, the only difference is that this time it's a president's wife instead of some college sophomore.
- I'm not Jesus, but I can turn water into Kool-Aid.
- A Sergeant in motion outranks an officer who doesn't know what the hell is going on.
- A demolitions specialist at a flat run outranks everybody.
User avatar
Fivelives
 
Posts: 3108
Joined: Sat Feb 16, 2008 7:55 pm

PreviousNext

Return to Arkham Asylum

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


Remove Advertisements

Who is online

In total there is 1 user online :: 0 registered, 0 hidden and 1 guest (based on users active over the past 5 minutes)
Most users ever online was 380 on Tue Oct 14, 2008 6:28 pm

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest
?php } else { ?