Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Invisusira's playground

Moderators: Aergis, Invisusira

Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Koatanga » Thu May 01, 2014 2:09 pm

No amount of negotiation would result in Russia keeping any of Poland or Romania. The result would either be a complete withdrawal, or sufficient force would be brought to bear to force the complete withdrawal. It's non-negotiable.

With the Baltic states, there's some wiggle-room providing the people in the area, like the people in Crimea, vote overwhelmingly to become part of Russia. At the end of the day the healthiest thing to do is to listen to the will of the people.

There is no such public opinion in Poland or Romania.

I can't even believe you would use Poland as an example. You might as well suggest Russia invades Alaska. Anyone who invades Poland is instantly going to be associated with Nazi Germany. Between that and it being the old arch-enemy Russia, the call to go to war would have the complete support of the US citizenry, giving the President and congress a green light to use whatever force is necessary up to and possibly even including nuclear options if the American people can be scared into thinking it's WWIII, which isn't very hard to do - just blow something up or crash an airplane.
Retired. Koatanga, Shapely, Sultry, Doominatrix of Greenstone - Dath'Remar
Koatanga
 
Posts: 2014
Joined: Mon Nov 17, 2008 12:46 pm

Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Io.Draco » Thu May 01, 2014 4:09 pm

No amount of negotiation would result in Russia keeping any of Poland or Romania.


Nor did I at any point suggest otherwise. Putin invading Poland and Romania would be pert of a larger anti-NATO offensive, with the goal of taking the Baltic states while hammering the militarizes of countries on the eastern border as hard as he can. It would be foolish for him to just invade the Baltic States and ignore the two of the largest militaries in the area: Romania and Poland.

Although it could perhaps be argued he would have greater success if he only invaded Baltics to see how far NATO would take it.

giving the President and congress a green light to use whatever force is necessary up to and possibly even including nuclear options if the American people can be scared into thinking it's WWIII, which isn't very hard to do - just blow something up or crash an airplane.


You really don't want to bring up the nukes when talking of a Russian - NATO war. I don't think anyone on either side would take it that far, God have mercy if they do.
User avatar
Io.Draco
 
Posts: 1639
Joined: Tue Sep 18, 2007 1:33 am

Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Koatanga » Thu May 01, 2014 7:18 pm

Io.Draco wrote:
No amount of negotiation would result in Russia keeping any of Poland or Romania.


Nor did I at any point suggest otherwise. Putin invading Poland and Romania would be pert of a larger anti-NATO offensive, with the goal of taking the Baltic states while hammering the militarizes of countries on the eastern border as hard as he can. It would be foolish for him to just invade the Baltic States and ignore the two of the largest militaries in the area: Romania and Poland.

Your position is becoming so convoluted that I can't be bothered to pursue it anymore. First he was invading Romania, then Romania and Poland, and now simultaneous invading Romania and Poland and the Baltic states hoping everyone will be distracted by Romania and Poland and somehow ignore the Baltic invasions. It beggars any form of reason.

Do you seriously think he's going to invade Poland, then sit down at the negotiation table and say "Oops, my bad, I'll just go home now" and be forgiven? When a nation is behaving in an aggressively hostile manner, the other nations in the world will put a stop to it and seek to eliminate the possibility of future aggression. They'll sit down at the table and condemn Russia, then send in UN investigators to oversee the dismantling of the Russian war machine, then claim Russia is hiding their weapons of mass destruction - we've seen this before, and we know how it ends.
Retired. Koatanga, Shapely, Sultry, Doominatrix of Greenstone - Dath'Remar
Koatanga
 
Posts: 2014
Joined: Mon Nov 17, 2008 12:46 pm

Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Klaudandus » Thu May 01, 2014 7:49 pm

The Element of Forum Hyperbole
Image
---
Flüttershy - Draenei Protection Paladin, Aerie Peak
Klaudandus - BE Protection Paladin, Feathermoon (Semi-retired)
User avatar
Klaudandus
 
Posts: 11216
Joined: Thu Apr 02, 2009 7:08 am
Location: Texas' Armpit

Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Io.Draco » Thu May 01, 2014 11:19 pm

Your position is becoming so convoluted that I can't be bothered to pursue it anymore. First he was invading Romania, then Romania and Poland, and now simultaneous invading Romania and Poland and the Baltic states hoping everyone will be distracted by Romania and Poland and somehow ignore the Baltic invasions. It beggars any form of reason.


What boggles reason is the notion that if Putin would be invading a NATO country he would be ignoring the rest. When I mentioned him invading Romania or Poland I did not exclude him invading other nations at the same time. The Baltics, along with East/South Ukraine and possibility a chunk of Moldova ( that it doesn't control anyway ) would be his real targets.

What Putin could do is either invade all of them, including Moldova, some of them: Like say the Baltic States, or just gobble up every non-NATO member because he can get away with it without a military response.

When a nation is behaving in an aggressively hostile manner, the other nations in the world will put a stop to it and seek to eliminate the possibility of future aggression. They'll sit down at the table and condemn Russia, then send in UN investigators to oversee the dismantling of the Russian war machine, then claim Russia is hiding their weapons of mass destruction - we've seen this before, and we know how it ends.


You're comparing Russia to Iraq...with which by the way they were willing to negotiate. Also the UN? The UN won't do jack shit, they'll be prevented by the Russian veto in the security council. Very much unlike Iraq.

The biggest idiocy when dealing with Russia is to assume it can be dealt with using the same methods that were used in countries like Iraq or Libya.

things getting a bit interesting.


Better response time to a Russian attack, stationing of large numbers of troops close to Russia's borders and so on, although I find that their argument that Russia broke a 1997 agreement on not invading other nations just recently to be rather weak. Why was it that in 2008 you didn't hear a word on this?
User avatar
Io.Draco
 
Posts: 1639
Joined: Tue Sep 18, 2007 1:33 am

Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Sagara » Fri May 02, 2014 2:59 am

There's one thing I can't help but wonder: Russia has been economically and politically very stable (if ruthless) for close to 15 years now, while Ukraine has been in a political shitstorm for almost 10 of those years.

Still, Moscow hadn't tried much in all this time and reacted only now that Ukraine's gone in full-blown civil war.

It kind of speaks volume as to Russia self-confidence if they have to wait until their local supporters take arms themselves before they make their move on an militarily outdated, politically unstable neighbour (and actually not even dare to push forward where locals aren't friendly).

It reeks to me more as political muscle flexing and pushing the political debate towards foreign policy rather than economic or social issues - isn't there some kind of election in Great Mother Russia this year?
When that day comes, seek all the light and wonder of this world, and fight.

Worldie wrote:I used to like it [mean] back on Sylvanas.

Queldan - EU Stormrage (H) - Good night, sweet prince.
User avatar
Sagara
 
Posts: 3453
Joined: Mon Jan 12, 2009 1:04 am
Location: Belgium

Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Io.Draco » Fri May 02, 2014 4:11 am

Still, Moscow hadn't tried much in all this time and reacted only now that Ukraine's gone in full-blown civil war.


They didn't think it was necessary, soft power and all and they thought Ukraine's was in their sphere of influence.

It kind of speaks volume as to Russia self-confidence if they have to wait until their local supporters take arms themselves before they make their move on an militarily outdated, politically unstable neighbour (and actually not even dare to push forward where locals aren't friendly)


I dunno, they took Crimea fairly quickly from Ukraine when it came down to it. As for the East...well despite my statements on the matter there's also the possibility Putin doesn't want the East. There's no conclusive evidence that's been produced to prove Russian special forces are involved there and all the equipment the Russians seized in Crimea they have given back to Ukraine or are in the process of giving it back.
User avatar
Io.Draco
 
Posts: 1639
Joined: Tue Sep 18, 2007 1:33 am

Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Sagara » Fri May 02, 2014 4:15 am

So yeah, in short, Russia's just shitting its pants that they could lose influence in Ukraine and decided that bullshitting their way into supporting secession would help them politically and economically.

A threat for the ages to be sure.
When that day comes, seek all the light and wonder of this world, and fight.

Worldie wrote:I used to like it [mean] back on Sylvanas.

Queldan - EU Stormrage (H) - Good night, sweet prince.
User avatar
Sagara
 
Posts: 3453
Joined: Mon Jan 12, 2009 1:04 am
Location: Belgium

Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Io.Draco » Fri May 02, 2014 4:27 am

The got rather pissed off at what happened in February, it's kinda their own fault as well since they didn't get involved when they could have to prevent Yanukovich from being removed from power.

When Yanukovich fell, Putin waited for the Olympics to end and then flew to Moscow in a rage, he had to chop off the heads of the imbeciles who he had left there and had lost him Ukraine.
User avatar
Io.Draco
 
Posts: 1639
Joined: Tue Sep 18, 2007 1:33 am

Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Klaudandus » Fri May 02, 2014 1:20 pm

The Element of Forum Hyperbole
Image
---
Flüttershy - Draenei Protection Paladin, Aerie Peak
Klaudandus - BE Protection Paladin, Feathermoon (Semi-retired)
User avatar
Klaudandus
 
Posts: 11216
Joined: Thu Apr 02, 2009 7:08 am
Location: Texas' Armpit

Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Klaudandus » Fri May 02, 2014 1:49 pm

The Element of Forum Hyperbole
Image
---
Flüttershy - Draenei Protection Paladin, Aerie Peak
Klaudandus - BE Protection Paladin, Feathermoon (Semi-retired)
User avatar
Klaudandus
 
Posts: 11216
Joined: Thu Apr 02, 2009 7:08 am
Location: Texas' Armpit

Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby KysenMurrin » Fri May 02, 2014 2:31 pm

Temporarily playing WoW again.
Donnan - Nangun - Kysen - Kysen - Mardun - Timkins

Mostly-Book Blog.
KysenMurrin
 
Posts: 6955
Joined: Thu Jun 26, 2008 6:37 am
Location: UK

Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Paxen » Fri May 02, 2014 3:20 pm

Fundies, of all creeds, who loudly declare that "we're right, and therefore demand special treatment" makes me so angry. It's like they've never read any history at all.

Wait. Of course they haven't. Not outside their holy book, at least.
Paxen
 
Posts: 616
Joined: Mon Aug 17, 2009 3:38 am

Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby fuzzygeek » Fri May 02, 2014 3:20 pm



> The Temple is building a mold of the sculpture so they can pop these things out like evil, terribly expensive action figures whenever they need a new one.

Brill.
Image
User avatar
fuzzygeek
Maintankadonor
 
Posts: 5130
Joined: Wed Aug 01, 2007 1:58 pm

Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Amirya » Fri May 02, 2014 5:03 pm



Damnit, Klaud! And here I was thinking, "why, this weekend should be pretty good," and then I read that, and now I'm, all, "why, I am not surprised at all."

Where do these utter mouth-breathing retards come from?
Image

Fetzie wrote:The Defias Brotherhood is back, and this time they are acting as racketeers in Goldshire. Anybody wishing to dance for money must now pay them protection money or be charged triple the normal amount when repairing.
Amirya
Maintankadonor
 
Posts: 3985
Joined: Tue Dec 18, 2007 2:59 am

PreviousNext

Return to Arkham Asylum

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest

Who is online

In total there is 1 user online :: 0 registered, 0 hidden and 1 guest (based on users active over the past 5 minutes)
Most users ever online was 380 on Tue Oct 14, 2008 6:28 pm

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest