Politics (formerly Election 2012)

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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Koatanga » Thu May 01, 2014 2:09 pm

No amount of negotiation would result in Russia keeping any of Poland or Romania. The result would either be a complete withdrawal, or sufficient force would be brought to bear to force the complete withdrawal. It's non-negotiable.

With the Baltic states, there's some wiggle-room providing the people in the area, like the people in Crimea, vote overwhelmingly to become part of Russia. At the end of the day the healthiest thing to do is to listen to the will of the people.

There is no such public opinion in Poland or Romania.

I can't even believe you would use Poland as an example. You might as well suggest Russia invades Alaska. Anyone who invades Poland is instantly going to be associated with Nazi Germany. Between that and it being the old arch-enemy Russia, the call to go to war would have the complete support of the US citizenry, giving the President and congress a green light to use whatever force is necessary up to and possibly even including nuclear options if the American people can be scared into thinking it's WWIII, which isn't very hard to do - just blow something up or crash an airplane.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Io.Draco » Thu May 01, 2014 4:09 pm

No amount of negotiation would result in Russia keeping any of Poland or Romania.


Nor did I at any point suggest otherwise. Putin invading Poland and Romania would be pert of a larger anti-NATO offensive, with the goal of taking the Baltic states while hammering the militarizes of countries on the eastern border as hard as he can. It would be foolish for him to just invade the Baltic States and ignore the two of the largest militaries in the area: Romania and Poland.

Although it could perhaps be argued he would have greater success if he only invaded Baltics to see how far NATO would take it.

giving the President and congress a green light to use whatever force is necessary up to and possibly even including nuclear options if the American people can be scared into thinking it's WWIII, which isn't very hard to do - just blow something up or crash an airplane.


You really don't want to bring up the nukes when talking of a Russian - NATO war. I don't think anyone on either side would take it that far, God have mercy if they do.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Koatanga » Thu May 01, 2014 7:18 pm

Io.Draco wrote:
No amount of negotiation would result in Russia keeping any of Poland or Romania.


Nor did I at any point suggest otherwise. Putin invading Poland and Romania would be pert of a larger anti-NATO offensive, with the goal of taking the Baltic states while hammering the militarizes of countries on the eastern border as hard as he can. It would be foolish for him to just invade the Baltic States and ignore the two of the largest militaries in the area: Romania and Poland.

Your position is becoming so convoluted that I can't be bothered to pursue it anymore. First he was invading Romania, then Romania and Poland, and now simultaneous invading Romania and Poland and the Baltic states hoping everyone will be distracted by Romania and Poland and somehow ignore the Baltic invasions. It beggars any form of reason.

Do you seriously think he's going to invade Poland, then sit down at the negotiation table and say "Oops, my bad, I'll just go home now" and be forgiven? When a nation is behaving in an aggressively hostile manner, the other nations in the world will put a stop to it and seek to eliminate the possibility of future aggression. They'll sit down at the table and condemn Russia, then send in UN investigators to oversee the dismantling of the Russian war machine, then claim Russia is hiding their weapons of mass destruction - we've seen this before, and we know how it ends.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Klaudandus » Thu May 01, 2014 7:49 pm

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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Io.Draco » Thu May 01, 2014 11:19 pm

Your position is becoming so convoluted that I can't be bothered to pursue it anymore. First he was invading Romania, then Romania and Poland, and now simultaneous invading Romania and Poland and the Baltic states hoping everyone will be distracted by Romania and Poland and somehow ignore the Baltic invasions. It beggars any form of reason.


What boggles reason is the notion that if Putin would be invading a NATO country he would be ignoring the rest. When I mentioned him invading Romania or Poland I did not exclude him invading other nations at the same time. The Baltics, along with East/South Ukraine and possibility a chunk of Moldova ( that it doesn't control anyway ) would be his real targets.

What Putin could do is either invade all of them, including Moldova, some of them: Like say the Baltic States, or just gobble up every non-NATO member because he can get away with it without a military response.

When a nation is behaving in an aggressively hostile manner, the other nations in the world will put a stop to it and seek to eliminate the possibility of future aggression. They'll sit down at the table and condemn Russia, then send in UN investigators to oversee the dismantling of the Russian war machine, then claim Russia is hiding their weapons of mass destruction - we've seen this before, and we know how it ends.


You're comparing Russia to Iraq...with which by the way they were willing to negotiate. Also the UN? The UN won't do jack shit, they'll be prevented by the Russian veto in the security council. Very much unlike Iraq.

The biggest idiocy when dealing with Russia is to assume it can be dealt with using the same methods that were used in countries like Iraq or Libya.

things getting a bit interesting.


Better response time to a Russian attack, stationing of large numbers of troops close to Russia's borders and so on, although I find that their argument that Russia broke a 1997 agreement on not invading other nations just recently to be rather weak. Why was it that in 2008 you didn't hear a word on this?
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Sagara » Fri May 02, 2014 2:59 am

There's one thing I can't help but wonder: Russia has been economically and politically very stable (if ruthless) for close to 15 years now, while Ukraine has been in a political shitstorm for almost 10 of those years.

Still, Moscow hadn't tried much in all this time and reacted only now that Ukraine's gone in full-blown civil war.

It kind of speaks volume as to Russia self-confidence if they have to wait until their local supporters take arms themselves before they make their move on an militarily outdated, politically unstable neighbour (and actually not even dare to push forward where locals aren't friendly).

It reeks to me more as political muscle flexing and pushing the political debate towards foreign policy rather than economic or social issues - isn't there some kind of election in Great Mother Russia this year?
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Io.Draco » Fri May 02, 2014 4:11 am

Still, Moscow hadn't tried much in all this time and reacted only now that Ukraine's gone in full-blown civil war.


They didn't think it was necessary, soft power and all and they thought Ukraine's was in their sphere of influence.

It kind of speaks volume as to Russia self-confidence if they have to wait until their local supporters take arms themselves before they make their move on an militarily outdated, politically unstable neighbour (and actually not even dare to push forward where locals aren't friendly)


I dunno, they took Crimea fairly quickly from Ukraine when it came down to it. As for the East...well despite my statements on the matter there's also the possibility Putin doesn't want the East. There's no conclusive evidence that's been produced to prove Russian special forces are involved there and all the equipment the Russians seized in Crimea they have given back to Ukraine or are in the process of giving it back.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Sagara » Fri May 02, 2014 4:15 am

So yeah, in short, Russia's just shitting its pants that they could lose influence in Ukraine and decided that bullshitting their way into supporting secession would help them politically and economically.

A threat for the ages to be sure.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Io.Draco » Fri May 02, 2014 4:27 am

The got rather pissed off at what happened in February, it's kinda their own fault as well since they didn't get involved when they could have to prevent Yanukovich from being removed from power.

When Yanukovich fell, Putin waited for the Olympics to end and then flew to Moscow in a rage, he had to chop off the heads of the imbeciles who he had left there and had lost him Ukraine.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Klaudandus » Fri May 02, 2014 1:20 pm

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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Klaudandus » Fri May 02, 2014 1:49 pm

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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby KysenMurrin » Fri May 02, 2014 2:31 pm

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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Paxen » Fri May 02, 2014 3:20 pm

Fundies, of all creeds, who loudly declare that "we're right, and therefore demand special treatment" makes me so angry. It's like they've never read any history at all.

Wait. Of course they haven't. Not outside their holy book, at least.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby fuzzygeek » Fri May 02, 2014 3:20 pm



> The Temple is building a mold of the sculpture so they can pop these things out like evil, terribly expensive action figures whenever they need a new one.

Brill.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Amirya » Fri May 02, 2014 5:03 pm



Damnit, Klaud! And here I was thinking, "why, this weekend should be pretty good," and then I read that, and now I'm, all, "why, I am not surprised at all."

Where do these utter mouth-breathing retards come from?
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Io.Draco » Fri May 02, 2014 5:10 pm

Where do these utter mouth-breathing retards come from?


They exist everywhere in every country, but it's the US where they are very vocal because of well...high technological advancement + democracy.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Klaudandus » Sat May 03, 2014 4:42 am

Amirya wrote:


Damnit, Klaud! And here I was thinking, "why, this weekend should be pretty good," and then I read that, and now I'm, all, "why, I am not surprised at all."

Where do these utter mouth-breathing retards come from?


Well, I also found an article about this Teatard that claims that giving women the right to vote was a bad idea because it promotes "family anarchy"
http://www.rightwingwatch.org/content/b ... y-together
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Amirya » Sat May 03, 2014 10:10 am

Someday, sir, I will find you in Texas, I will have an arsenal of wet noodles and hungry goats, and I will beat you with both...

Because now my brain hurts.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Klaudandus » Sat May 03, 2014 12:35 pm

Amirya wrote:Someday, sir, I will find you in Texas, I will have an arsenal of wet noodles and hungry goats, and I will beat you with both...

Because now my brain hurts.


I am just a purveyor of stupid statements done by right wing crazies, not my fault there are so many of them. XD
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Nooska » Sat May 03, 2014 1:21 pm

Klaudandus wrote:
Amirya wrote:Someday, sir, I will find you in Texas, I will have an arsenal of wet noodles and hungry goats, and I will beat you with both...

Because now my brain hurts.


I am just a purveyor of stupid statements done by right wing crazies, not my fault there are so many of them. XD

To be fair, there are equally many stupid statements done by left wing crazies...

(Says the socialist!)

ave I mentioned that during budget negotiations last year, the leftwing party wanted a law changed granting every old person the right to 2 baths a week, because they wanted to up the standard of care for the elderly?
Totally ignoring that most places the elderly get more than 2 baths a week today, and totally ignoring the fact that minium rights typically becomes standards in very short order ("We uphold the exact letter of the law, how can you complain?"), and also ignoring that any way you wrote that in a law, you would also be forced to give the elderly 2 baths a week (regardless of what the individual wanted "but it's the law", and that the right would extend to old people that don't recieve help (and don't need it).
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Io.Draco » Mon May 05, 2014 8:55 am

I find myself amazed a bit at the turn of events in Ukraine. I expected chaos, bloodshed and the like.

I however did not expect Ukraine to use Helicopter Gunships and Artillery against their own fucking people. Oh sure they are separatists but bloody hell what kind of morons bombs his own people in his own country's cities?!
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Nooska » Mon May 05, 2014 10:16 am

At this point they are not merely seperatists, but insurgents.

What would you have them do? Thy have to uphold their sovereign claim by force of arms when people are taking up arms and rejecting it (use it or lose it, basically).
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Io.Draco » Mon May 05, 2014 12:20 pm

If you somehow think you will maintain a nation intact through sheer brute force then you are quite mistaken. It will only lead to devastation and bloodshed: See also Libya and Syria.

There is however a fundamental difference between those two countries and Ukraine. In both Syria and Libya you had protesters calling for the removal of their leaders, their trials and even execution from the very beginning before the army was sent in.

In Ukraine the crisis only began after the moronic Parliament in Kiev decided to ban the usage of the Russian language and that in conjunctions with anti-Russian rhetoric ( against ethnic russians inside Ukraine that is ) is what led to the Crimean situation and to the current situation in Eastern/Southern Ukraine. It is easy to forget the Crimeans begged the Russians for help, just as Eastern Ukranians are doing right now. The hard line response of Kiev makes it worse then either Assad or Gaddafi.

It could have all been avoided if the Parliament had acted to calm the East and South following Yanukovich's removal, since they were angry and rightly so at his removal. Granted with regards to Yanukovich he did the same mistake when violence broke out in Kiev...but for fuck sake even he stopped short of sending the army against his own people.

Now however? It's too late: Odessa was the tipping point where negotiations are not going to lead to anything more. The west in their idiocy instead of letting Russia steam roll in earlier and resolve the situation with little bloodshed instead decided they would support Kiev, support it's military operation and threaten Russia with the same kind of sanctions Iran was hit if they don't back down.

This is what you got as a result: Putin won't be stopped by sanctions, but he's probably figured he can wait long enough for the west to realize the idiocy and then roll in without sanctions affecting him.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Nooska » Mon May 05, 2014 1:38 pm

"Letting Russia steam roll in" was never an option.

This is as much a war by proxy as any of the mutiple engagements during the actual cold war.


I ask again, what would you have the currently acknowledged Ukranian government do instead?
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Io.Draco » Mon May 05, 2014 2:04 pm

Attempted to negotiate, and not needlessly provoke them. There was a possibility for it.

Letting Russia steam roll in" was never an option.

This is as much a war by proxy as any of the mutiple engagements during the actual cold war.


It will be, once civilians start dying the EU due to massive public pressure will back off and America won't act on sector sanctions against Russia on it's own thus leaving Putin to invade.
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