Politics (formerly Election 2012)

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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Fivelives » Mon Feb 17, 2014 11:32 am

Klaudandus wrote:Why can't the US stop playing World Police? People in the middle east hates us for two reasons.
- We meddle in other people's business
- We are seen as Israel's lapdog.

We do it because somebody has to, and nobody else that's even remotely reasonable is willing to. Would you really want China to be in charge of policing world human rights issues? How about Afghanistan deciding women's rights? Or how about Iran in charge of negotiating peace treaties? Maybe you'd like Syria in charge of disarmament and chemical weapons programs?

Essentially it's a case of the people who would be best at the job are those who are completely unwilling to do it. At one point, I think that the US as a nation was unwilling to do it but recognized the need. Unfortunately, I think we've gone beyond that to where we actually enjoy being Team 'Murka: World Police™ (Fuck Yeah!). That shit about "bringing democracy" pisses me off to no end. We go in to perfectly functioning countries and force our system of government on them like a damn plague or something. We have become what we once feared - back in the 50s the "Red Scare" was in full effect, and we were deathly afraid of the spread of communism. So how exactly is our method of "bomb the democracy into them" even one single iota better?

As far as being Israel's lapdog, that's a whole other can of worms. Being an ally doesn't necessarily mean you're a lapdog. Israel is (as far as I know) the only country we're accused of with that, despite having strategic alliances with a number of other countries that are just as strong as those we have with Israel. So why aren't we accused of being, say, France's attack dog? Or maybe the UK's yappy anklebiter?
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Amirya » Mon Feb 17, 2014 11:52 am

And the worst part of the "bringing democracy" crap is that I look out how dysfunctional our own government is nowadays, and the only thought in my head is, "who the fuck would want to have this sort of this?"

Then it gives me ideas as to what my non-American fictional characters say to their American counterparts...
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Fivelives » Mon Feb 17, 2014 12:11 pm

The fucked-upedness (if that isn't a word, it damn well SHOULD be) of our government proves that it's functioning as intended. The bigger problem is the electorate being willfully ignorant of the issues and the candidates platforms/voting records. Also, being unable/unwilling to learn the way our government actually functions.

In fairness though, I think when junior high and high school civics classes stopped being mandatory (thank you, standardized fucking tests and the "teach to the test" philosophy they encourage) that started the downward trend in people knowing how our government works. Now the people who are voting are those who never took those classes (or it's been so long they've forgotten How Things Work), so they have no clue how the system of checks and balances actually works. Look no further than people claiming that executive orders mean the president can essentially make everyone do whatever he wants as proof.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Koatanga » Mon Feb 17, 2014 12:28 pm

Fivelives wrote:
Klaudandus wrote:Why can't the US stop playing World Police? People in the middle east hates us for two reasons.
- We meddle in other people's business
- We are seen as Israel's lapdog.

We do it because somebody has to, and nobody else that's even remotely reasonable is willing to. Would you really want China to be in charge of policing world human rights issues? How about Afghanistan deciding women's rights? Or how about Iran in charge of negotiating peace treaties? Maybe you'd like Syria in charge of disarmament and chemical weapons programs?

I think the point is that no single nation should be the sole judge of what happens around the world. Iran feels as comfortable with the US policing everything as the US would is Syria was in charge.

The US is one of the more isolationist populations in the world. The average American has no clue what the pulse of the world is. The US is making greater strides toward joining the rest of the world - it's up to 1/3 of the population having a passport, which is double what it was in 2000, and much better than the 3% who had passports in 1989. But there's still a long way to go just to catch up to the likes of Canada, where 65% of the people have passports.

The world should not be policed by a people who don't even visit it. How can the US pretend to understand or be a part of the world if the vast majority of the people voting for American leadership don't even visit countries outside the US? It's not fit to hold such a position. It's not part of the global community, yet it elects itself Global Cops because it spends more on military than the next 10 nations combined, 9 of which are allies.

If there's a guy on your block who collects lots of guns and keeps to himself, that's not a candidate for Sheriff.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Klaudandus » Mon Feb 17, 2014 1:03 pm

Fivelives wrote:As far as being Israel's lapdog, that's a whole other can of worms. Being an ally doesn't necessarily mean you're a lapdog. Israel is (as far as I know) the only country we're accused of with that, despite having strategic alliances with a number of other countries that are just as strong as those we have with Israel. So why aren't we accused of being, say, France's attack dog? Or maybe the UK's yappy anklebiter?


Because Israel is the one that goes in, rattles the middle east, then goes to hide behind the US.

Also, many congressmen, both Republicans and Democrats, are really friendly towards Israel and want foreign policy based on what Israel wants.

And don't forget the whole financial aid to Israel. Do we really need to give billions of dollars to Israel?

Yeah yeah, you can say that Isreal is our foothold in the middle east should we actually need to go invade other countries, but we probably would not need to if we weren't so chummy with Israel.

Funnily enough, Netanyahu has complained several times about Obama not being as chummy as other presidents have been towards Israel.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Fridmarr » Mon Feb 17, 2014 1:11 pm

That's not even close to accurate at any level. I mean Israel has no desire to hide behind the US (and how would that make us their lapdog? That doesn't even makes sense) nor do they need too. All of their neighbors attacked them once, bent on wiping Israel off the map and it didn't go very well. Aside from Palestinian territories, Israel doesn't really "go" anywhere and doesn't really get involved with much else. They aren't why we went in to Afghanistan, Kuwait, Bosnia, Egypt, Iraq, or why we are involved in Syria and with sanctions on Iran and all the other crap we are involved in. Israel isn't a big rattler of things in the Middle East these days, but with current regimes in place, as long as they exist there will be some issues.

Israel is a liberalized country, and we are allies with pretty much every liberalized country on the planet.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Klaudandus » Tue Feb 18, 2014 3:36 pm

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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Amirya » Tue Feb 18, 2014 4:21 pm

Uhhh...I'm not as up to date on DinoAir as I should be, but how the hell does one determine CO2 ppm at that time? And in which period?

Also, I have this sneaking suspicion the marijuana in CO is crossing state lines.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Passionario » Tue Feb 18, 2014 11:51 pm

The civil war in Ukraine is rapidly going hot. :(
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Sagara » Wed Feb 19, 2014 12:18 am

Heard about that on the news. The typical message here in Brussels is that downtrodden citizens are forming human chains behind the radical activists that are currently facing the police forces.

Then again, I currently suspect any message brought to me from occidental sources as pro-manifestant (and I don't suspect any pro-police report, I just remember they're pro-russian, and agree that the bullshit ratio is off the grid).
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby KysenMurrin » Wed Feb 19, 2014 1:16 am

Amirya wrote:Uhhh...I'm not as up to date on DinoAir as I should be, but how the hell does one determine CO2 ppm at that time? And in which period?

Ice core samples, mostly, along with samples from deep rock.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Amirya » Wed Feb 19, 2014 8:43 am

Ah, thank you Kysen. I need to brush up on science, obviously. :)
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Koatanga » Wed Feb 19, 2014 1:52 pm

I finally caught up on the Nye vs Ham debate on "mainstream science" vs. creationism. The young earth creationist point of view is that stratified rock was created how it is instead of occurring over millions of years. Ham argues that there is nothing in that belief that inhibits scientific research and development in any way.

I have to wonder, however, how that relates to oil exploration. If mainstream science is to be believed, layers of rock cover ancient collections of dead things that decay to fossil fuels, so if you understand the geography you can predict where the oil will be. Seems to me if things were simply created as they are, there would be no way to predict where to find oil.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby KysenMurrin » Wed Feb 19, 2014 2:05 pm

That's easy: God created the entire world exactly as it would be if it really had formed over millions of years in order to test our faith. Truth is, the entire universe was actually created last Tuesday, he just made everything - including our minds - in the exact state they needed to be in order to believe it'd been around for ages.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Kal » Wed Feb 19, 2014 2:48 pm

That sounds so very sarcastic, and when I say much the same, I'm sarcastic as well, but keep in mind, that was the prevailing philosophy concerning fossils for quite some time.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Koatanga » Wed Feb 19, 2014 2:54 pm

Kal wrote:That sounds so very sarcastic, and when I say much the same, I'm sarcastic as well, but keep in mind, that was the prevailing philosophy concerning fossils for quite some time.

The difference between mainstream scientists and young-earth creationists is that when presented with evidence proving the fossils were in fact really old, mainstream scientists changed their philosophy.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Klaudandus » Wed Feb 19, 2014 4:19 pm

KysenMurrin wrote:That's easy: God created the entire world exactly as it would be if it really had formed over millions of years in order to test our faith. Truth is, the entire universe was actually created last Tuesday, he just made everything - including our minds - in the exact state they needed to be in order to believe it'd been around for ages.


That's the omphalos hypothesis, also known as last thursdayism....
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Kal » Wed Feb 19, 2014 4:57 pm

Koatanga wrote:
Kal wrote:That sounds so very sarcastic, and when I say much the same, I'm sarcastic as well, but keep in mind, that was the prevailing philosophy concerning fossils for quite some time.

The difference between mainstream scientists and young-earth creationists is that when presented with evidence proving the fossils were in fact really old, mainstream scientists changed their philosophy.


You're preaching to the choir, though I suppose I should specify what I was getting at. I don't think it's ridiculous to believe in a old-looking young earth, when a creator is invoked and the Bible is interpreted literally. Anything powerful enough to create ex nihilo (which is a straw man anyway), would be powerful enough to create it any way they wished. As for whether it would be intended to be a "test of faith", that's also reasonable *if* one starts from scripture, which includes many tests of faith.

I laugh too, I really do, but I also acknowledge that I'm laughing at my teenage self.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby KysenMurrin » Wed Feb 19, 2014 5:08 pm

The thing about that idea is, it's impossible to disprove. For all we know it could be true, but if it is then we'd never know, because the deception would be perfect by definition. So for all intents and purposes it's entirely irrelevant and we needn't bother wasting time on it.

Edit: And now I remember this is the politics thread. Moving on!
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Amirya » Wed Feb 19, 2014 6:59 pm

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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Koatanga » Wed Feb 19, 2014 8:31 pm

At least they can now discriminate against Mexicans on the basis that they're Catholic. Arizona's been wanting some reason to justify racial profiling for quite some time.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Koatanga » Thu Feb 20, 2014 12:05 pm

This is how seriously we take our politics in New Zealand:

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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Sagara » Thu Feb 20, 2014 12:58 pm

Well at least he's got a sense of humor.
Not quite the same here in Belgium - our politicians ARE the humour by their very existence: see the current top 3 politicians are (drum roll)

A) the Gay Socialist, son of immigrants (Italians, but wathever), current Prime Minister (that apparently causes American Republicans to spontaneously burst in flames on contact). Got accused of homosexuality and pedophily back when he was up and coming and pedophily was tantamount to being the Devil reborn and homosexuality wasn't as accepted. His answer? "Why yes, I'm gay. That's all actually. Any other questions?"

B) The Separatist Liberal whose conservative views are highly regarded by the Flemish, and quite a bit less so by the rest of the country. He's an excellent leader and orator (or demagogist, depending on who your ask) and a very learned a-hole if you ask me, that got a bit of extra fame by nearly winning "De slimste mens ter wereld" a general knowledge TV competition. He has been straddling the line with the far right, but nothing damning sticks yet.

C) This lady that came completely out of left field as a token representative of one the smaller parties on the current government (could you imagine seriously fielding her as a figurehead for your party?). She was in charge with immigration and social integration when things went SNAFU and surprised everyone with willfull and efficient decisions that earned no small amount of fame. So basically, in one year's time, she went for political nobody to potential Prime Minister, despite looking FAR from the typical "political woman" image
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Koatanga » Thu Feb 20, 2014 1:21 pm

You want "political woman" image? Meet our former Prime Minister, and your future head of the UN, Helen Clark:

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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Kal » Thu Feb 20, 2014 2:59 pm

KysenMurrin wrote:The thing about that idea is, it's impossible to disprove. For all we know it could be true, but if it is then we'd never know, because the deception would be perfect by definition. So for all intents and purposes it's entirely irrelevant and we needn't bother wasting time on it.

Edit: And now I remember this is the politics thread. Moving on!


Oh, I now know it's unfalsifiable. I just wasn't taught logic in school. I didn't read about Russell's Teapot until I was 22 years old.

I disagree with your implication that this isn't political. What we allow to be taught in schools is a very political subject, but newer, more interesting threads are developing, so yeah.
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