Politics (formerly Election 2012)

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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Fivelives » Mon Jan 20, 2014 1:36 am

I don't even remember having TVs in chow halls, and for those that do wouldn't it make more sense to have them tuned in to the FARTS channel?.

You'd probably be surprised - most of the patients in hospital waiting rooms* are between 20-40 years old, with a noticeable spike in toddlers through preteens. The elderly inhabit hospitals in much the same way they inhabit nursing homes - on wards, in beds, with their own private TVs to watch. I could understand it if it was just demographics, but it really isn't. I think I remember a time (I'm not sure, because this was in the long long ago far far away category before the tea party came and flipped the table on everyone) when the TVs were tuned to the USA network or something.

I think I vaguely remember bitching about this same thing in this very thread a couple dozen(ish?) pages ago, but anywhere past "yesterday" and sometimes (if it was truly memorable, like having my first baby or something) "day before yesterday" my memory gets pretty unreliable for minutiae.

* Naturally, there are trends from ward to ward. Cardiology isn't going to have a lot of kids in there since most kids don't have heart problems. But conversely, obstetrics isn't going to have many old people there because most old people aren't evicting babies from their uteruses. Radiology is a tossup between stupid kids and old folks, with most old folks cycling through between 7am-2pm and stupid kids taking over once school lets out at 2:30-3:30 and going on through the night. Emergency departments are almost entirely populated by people 30 and under; at least in the waiting room anyway. The elderly mostly go straight in through the ambulance entrance.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Klaudandus » Sun Jan 26, 2014 6:48 pm

http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB1 ... 3982034286

Regarding your editorial "Censors on Campus" (Jan. 18): Writing from the epicenter of progressive thought, San Francisco, I would call attention to the parallels of fascist Nazi Germany to its war on its "one percent," namely its Jews, to the progressive war on the American one percent, namely the "rich."

From the Occupy movement to the demonization of the rich embedded in virtually every word of our local newspaper, the San Francisco Chronicle, I perceive a rising tide of hatred of the successful one percent. There is outraged public reaction to the Google buses carrying technology workers from the city to the peninsula high-tech companies which employ them. We have outrage over the rising real-estate prices which these "techno geeks" can pay. We have, for example, libelous and cruel attacks in the Chronicle on our number-one celebrity, the author Danielle Steel, alleging that she is a "snob" despite the millions she has spent on our city's homeless and mentally ill over the past decades.

This is a very dangerous drift in our American thinking. Kristallnacht was unthinkable in 1930; is its descendent "progressive" radicalism unthinkable now?




I think I just facepalmed myself at warp speed.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Klaudandus » Mon Jan 27, 2014 10:39 am

DISREGARD.
Last edited by Klaudandus on Mon Jan 27, 2014 1:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby KysenMurrin » Mon Jan 27, 2014 11:28 am

Edit: Ah, satire. Nevermind.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby fuzzygeek » Mon Jan 27, 2014 12:41 pm

Fake but accurate?
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Klaudandus » Mon Jan 27, 2014 1:55 pm

Wow, I fell for satire -- the problem is, knowing Bachmann, I actually thought it to be true. X___X

I apologize for the fake news.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Fivelives » Mon Jan 27, 2014 2:40 pm

That's the problem with extremists. The more extreme someone's viewpoint is, the more likely satire is to be taken as truth.

If it weren't for the "I never took a science class in college" line, I'd have fallen for that hook, line and sinker myself.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Klaudandus » Mon Jan 27, 2014 2:48 pm

http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/edward-sno ... -1.2511635

I'm sorry Brekkie, but I just can't buy the NSA getting involved in industrial espionage as national security. IN fact, I've been harping out it since the wiretapping into PetroBras was announced late last year.

Everyone here knows that if an individual were to try that, they would get sent to prison and whatnot, but the NSA wraps itself in the flag and calls it being patriotic/doing it for our freedom.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby fuzzygeek » Tue Jan 28, 2014 6:56 am

Fivelives wrote:That's the problem with extremists. The more extreme someone's viewpoint is, the more likely satire is to be taken as truth.

If it weren't for the "I never took a science class in college" line, I'd have fallen for that hook, line and sinker myself.


I don't think this is a problem so much with extremists as it is with people who want to believe the worst of people on the other team. See: "I can see Russia from my house!", Birthers, et. al.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Fivelives » Tue Jan 28, 2014 8:29 am

I'm extremely moderate in my views, and satire of both sides is hard for me to distinguish from truthful statements. There was an online quiz once, trying to pick between things that some famous crazy person said (I think Gary Busey or Rick Flair?) and completely made up statements on the part of the quiz author and it was a great illustration of how difficult it is to distinguish between crazy and fiction. I don't think anyone can argue that the political right has gone completely off the rails thanks to pandering to extremists, but it does make it hard to tell between satire and actual positions.

It's like earlier in this thread - that bit from Forbes magazine? The satirical essay about awarding the medal of honor to billionaires. I fell for that, hard, because it didn't seem like something that wouldn't be suggested in politics or business today. Wasn't until someone pointed out that the author had used "a modest proposal" in the text that I finally got it.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Klaudandus » Wed Jan 29, 2014 5:39 am

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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Amirya » Wed Jan 29, 2014 9:49 am

I don't understand the point of teaching Creationism/ID alongside evolution. Would they also require schools to teach other religious beliefs of how the planet came to be populated? Not every religion believes that they were created by a deity or highly evolved being.

If they would not, then why does Creationism/ID get a free pass?

(Note: I make no comment on the idea of Creationism/ID itself)
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Arjuna » Wed Jan 29, 2014 11:38 am

Amirya wrote:I don't understand the point of teaching Creationism/ID alongside evolution. Would they also require schools to teach other religious beliefs of how the planet came to be populated? Not every religion believes that they were created by a deity or highly evolved being.

If they would not, then why does Creationism/ID get a free pass?

(Note: I make no comment on the idea of Creationism/ID itself)

The problem is that they are trying to get it to play on equal footing with evolution in schools, which is crazy! One is science, the other is an opinion...
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Nooska » Wed Jan 29, 2014 12:06 pm

Well, to be perfectly fair, science is also an opinion, it just has more evidence.

Asking if ID/Creationism gets taugh alongside, then yes, why not creation mythos of other religious practises, I want the nordic creation mythos taught as fact too (it bears quite some resemblance with the big bang theory if you allow for mythic language, and no actual scientific knowledge)
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Klaudandus » Wed Jan 29, 2014 12:20 pm

If I was a science teacher, I'd make the effort to teach how Buri came to be after a galactic cow was licking a rock.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Aubade » Wed Jan 29, 2014 1:01 pm

Amirya wrote:I don't understand the point of teaching Creationism/ID alongside evolution. Would they also require schools to teach other religious beliefs of how the planet came to be populated? Not every religion believes that they were created by a deity or highly evolved being.

If they would not, then why does Creationism/ID get a free pass?

(Note: I make no comment on the idea of Creationism/ID itself)


Simple. Creationists/ID are the people who made the big stink. They don't believe in separation of church and state. They've been told (Falsely) that this country was founded as a christian country, so they think we should all adhere to their christian ideals. They give just as little crap about other religions as they do about evolution since to them it's not about teaching equally across ideals. It's about teaching THEIR Ideals, because their ideals are right, and everyone else's is made-up crap.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Kal » Wed Jan 29, 2014 1:14 pm

For anyone interested in Creationism/ID, I suggest watching the Ken Ham/Bill Nye debate “Is creation a viable model of origins?” coming up Feb 4th. (link) Would this deserve it own thread after it airs?

richarddawkins.net has an article commenting on it already, titled "Why Bill Nye shouldn't debate Ken Ham". I disagree with some of their main points as follows:

"Debating creationists offer their position credibility" I agree with this statement, but to then say "Scientists should not debate creationists. Period." is a non sequitur. I think truth is always worth debating, no matter how silly or sinister the opposition.

"Nye is not a biologist" Also a fair point, but neither is Ken Ham. To put a finer point on it, evolution isn't necessarily being defended, so much as Creationism being criticized. More importantly, Bill Nye is an educator. I think he is well qualified to criticize teaching Creationism as inappropriate for children.

"You must fully understand your opponent" This is simply an unfair criticism, I think. Who is to say Bill Nye doesn't know deceit when he sees it, or is unprepared to counter it? I've seen his TV spots concerning climate change, and they indicate he is a skilled debater, as well as a skilled presenter.

On a personal note, I was a Young-Earth Creationist as a kid, since that was what I was taught in school, and what caused me to reject Creationism was simply an unrestricted education. After I read Origin of Species and The Blind Watchmaker, Creationism simply didn't stand a chance with me anymore.

Bottom line: Bill Nye is a science educator, with decades of experience. I have high hopes for the outcome of this debate.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Koatanga » Wed Jan 29, 2014 2:55 pm

For me, the issue is that Creationism relies on logical fallacies, such as "it's true because you can't conclusively prove that it's not true". Nye should be used to formal debate where such tactics are frowned upon. The audience that believes in Creationism will likely not recognize logical fallacy as foul play because they are used to accepting fallacies as valid arguments.

I'm curious to see how he handles it. If he points out they are logical fallacies, he'll be seen as bullying Ham. If he allows them then he'll have difficulty refuting them as it is logically impossible to prove a negative. You cannot prove that you are not a space alien, or that you don't have weapons of mass destruction hidden somewhere, or that magic doesn't exist. All you can do is show an alternative that is explained via scientific principles, upon which you are met with the Gambler's Fallacy, which is "Yes, that could happen, but the odds of it happening that way are nearly nonexistent".
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Klaudandus » Wed Jan 29, 2014 3:04 pm

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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Nooska » Wed Jan 29, 2014 3:58 pm

Koatanga wrote:logical fallacies, such as "it's true because you can't conclusively prove that it's not true".


Thing is, when it comes to religion or faith, that isn't a logical fallacy, as faith is about believing that which cannot be proven (which means its the default position).
This is what so many people arguing against religious perception fails to understand, because faith is driven by belief, you can't prove they are wrong by saying they have to prove they are right.

Faith is belief without proof, so requiring proof for faith to be "right" is logically fallacious in and of itself, as you require faith do be proven belief only.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Fivelives » Wed Jan 29, 2014 4:29 pm

Klaudandus wrote:http://www.realclear.com/news/2014/01/29/snowden_nominated_for_nobel_peace_prize_5420.html

I'm OK with this.


I'm not. He swore an oath to keep secrets, then purposefully and systematically violated that oath. I'd like to think that the Nobel peace prize is worth more than that, that the person getting it has to have at least some modicum of integrity - otherwise, what's the point of it? It's bad enough that they've already given one out for essentially nothing (love him or hate him, Obama definitely did not earn a Nobel peace prize for getting elected - and as history has already shown he probably wouldn't even have been nominated today).

I mean think about it this way:
Martin Luther King, Jr. Mother Teresa. Nelson Mandela. Edward Snowden.

One of those names is not like the other.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Klaudandus » Wed Jan 29, 2014 4:38 pm

You see. I am perfectly ok with intelligence agencies gathering intelligence on terrorists attacks -- gathering intelligence on Petrobras or Siemens will not stop a terrorist attack though. That's why Snowden going Benedict Arnold is actually good for everyone, big picture wise.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Koatanga » Wed Jan 29, 2014 4:51 pm

Fivelives wrote:I'm not. He swore an oath to keep secrets, then purposefully and systematically violated that oath.

When the organization that he swore to keep secrets for turned out to be operating illegally, I would think the ethics of keeping the oath fall into a gray area at best.

I am sure at one point he swore allegiance to the flag of the United States, and to the republic for which it stands, one nation, indivisible, and all that. That oath would be in direct conflict with an oath to keep secrets for an organization operating against the laws of that republic. He is therefore ethically bound to serve the Republic, not the organization.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Kal » Wed Jan 29, 2014 4:57 pm

Snowden swore an oath to defend the Constitution against all enemies foreign and domestic.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Klaudandus » Wed Jan 29, 2014 5:07 pm

Kal wrote:Snowden swore an oath to defend the Constitution against all enemies foreign and domestic.


Bravo.
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