Politics (formerly Election 2012)

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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Nooska » Tue Dec 10, 2013 4:33 am

Around here kids are allowed to work, how long and what job functions they can fill is restricted by age in work environmetal laws, and the unions have special "underage" patrols in the summertime (where many kids have a summer job to earn some money of their own), that visit the primary "suspects" and check up on whether the employers do what they should, and whether the kids know the restrictions.

Kids don't get payed full wages - the main issue with this is the 17 year olds getting fired as a birthday "present" because the employers need to pay fuul wages when they turn 18 (ie. age discrimination).

It works, no kids are amistreated because of being allowed to work, and the restrictions mean its not the negative values of child labor, but just earning money doing what they can do (that is deemed appropriate).
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Sagara » Tue Dec 10, 2013 4:58 am

Silly 'murrricans, never able to see the solution that stares right back from the other side of the atlantic 8)

Just kidding guys, different strokes for different people!
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Fivelives » Tue Dec 10, 2013 7:10 am

When I was a kid, I would sell shiny rocks to my neighbors, or stickers that my grandmother would bring home from the hospital - she was also a nurse - by the sheet. Never underestimate the power of a small child with shiny rocks and stickers, it's more effective at opening a wallet than Joel Osteen.

Then when I got a little older, I went around the neighborhood looking for odd jobs, things like walking dogs, emptying trash, doing chores or helping out with things. When I got a little older still, I started hitting up businesses in strip malls - print shops are usually ripe targets for kids, paying a couple cents per envelope stuffed for mailers.

Making it legal for employers to actively seek child labor in the US for less than minimum wage or the average for that specific position, no matter how regulated it may be, is a bad idea. It would shift jobs from adults who are already barely living paycheck to paycheck and scraping by to children who are cheaper labor. It's the same thing that happened back when they loosened restrictions on outsourcing jobs and a flood of US jobs went overseas. Except that instead of a kid from India taking a job that could be kept here, it would be a child from here that took that job.

Sure it would be good for the businesses. They'd make higher profits, at least in the short term. But as their labor cost goes down, so does the economy in this case. And we're already trying to dig ourselves out of a nasty recession that nearly tanked the entire world's economy. So let's stick to paper routes and odd jobs for the kids who are motivated enough to find them, and weekly allowances for doing chores around the house, shall we?
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby fuzzygeek » Tue Dec 10, 2013 9:04 am

When I was growing up my parents were too poor to give me an allowance. We would sell snap peas my father grew in the garden to the neighborhood. People in my neighborhood wouldn't give you money for shiny rocks.

You're missing the point of the article. Kids are already working; they require a permit to do so, and what they can do is already limited. Lawmaker is attempting to streamline the process so it isn't a bureaucratic nightmare. People hyperventilate and pretend he's trying to fill factories with child slave labor making poor Oliver Twist work 80 hour weeks. This is stupid.

Sagara wrote:Silly 'murrricans, never able to see the solution that stares right back from the other side of the atlantic 8)

What do they do where you live? I honestly don't know.

I think I have a cousin or something in Taiwan who started a business in his bedroom selling mail order cabling when he was in high school. He'd hire other kids in the neighborhood to do cutting and crimping. I don't imagine they got paid much, but I don't know what regulations are like there, either.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Fridmarr » Tue Dec 10, 2013 7:50 pm

This has been out for a few days now, but it still kind of cracks me up.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/insertcoin/ ... r=yahootix

I'm betting this was merely an excuse for federal agents to play WoW at work. It's fucking genius if you think about it.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Fivelives » Tue Dec 10, 2013 11:13 pm

There was a news story a few years back about how people were using xbox live call of duty matches (or something) to arrange hits. I didn't give it much credence, because media + video games = hilarious purposeful misunderstandings, but I guess the federal government hasn't gotten that memo yet.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Sagara » Wed Dec 11, 2013 3:44 am

fuzzygeek wrote:
Sagara wrote:Silly 'murrricans, never able to see the solution that stares right back from the other side of the atlantic 8)

What do they do where you live? I honestly don't know.


Same as Nooska, roughly - very strictly controlled labor that mainly gets used for summer and weekends.

I'm guessing the fact that most of our contries have compulsory civil registers helps a lot keep the paperwork tidy.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Nooska » Wed Dec 11, 2013 5:07 am

Oh yeah, that too :)

(Generally, Europe is very authoritarian* in its build, and very liberal in its stance)



* to most americans I would guess - to most europeans its just the way it is, and it helps a lot in a lot of situations, like... say.. healthcare.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Skye1013 » Wed Dec 11, 2013 6:06 am

I was working at the age of 12... in Texas. It was at a renaissance festival (with my parents working it as well.) Maybe because of that, the restrictions are different. Maybe I was working illegally... I don't know.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Klaudandus » Wed Dec 11, 2013 6:53 am

Skye1013 wrote:I was working at the age of 12... in Texas. It was at a renaissance festival (with my parents working it as well.) Maybe because of that, the restrictions are different. Maybe I was working illegally... I don't know.


Which ren fest if you don't mind me asking?
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Klaudandus » Thu Dec 12, 2013 2:44 pm

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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Amirya » Thu Dec 12, 2013 3:00 pm

Don't worry, I'm sure someone will also pass a law requiring men to purchase an insurance rider to cover Viagra in the event that they develop ED...
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Klaudandus » Thu Dec 12, 2013 3:49 pm

So, Walker compares his fight against the unions' to the 13th amendment...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SnDxxq0Upb8

And...

Santorum claims Obamacare is Apartheid...
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/d ... epublicans

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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Klaudandus » Mon Dec 16, 2013 2:09 pm

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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Nooska » Mon Dec 16, 2013 3:41 pm

Iiiiiiiiiiiiiinteeeeeereeeesting
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Klaudandus » Tue Dec 17, 2013 2:31 pm

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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Brekkie » Tue Dec 17, 2013 11:49 pm

The articles are accurate in stating that, as a consular officer (and a very minor, unimportant one at that), her limited diplomatic immunity does not cover her against these kind of charges.

Additionally, these kind of charges are fairly unsurprising. Attempted human trafficking and exploitation of domestic servants by diplomats from countries where such behavior is "culturally normal" is fairly common. They have their little low-chaste servant girl (and in the case of male diplomats, sex-slave) who comes from the urban slums and doesn't have any identity documents like a birth certificate or anything. So the diplomat gets something printed up (it's not a forgery if it's government-issued?) to satisfy the visa application requirements. We do the best we can to come up with a reason to say no, but often everything technically checks out and we can't come up with a good reason for refusing the visa.

As for the strip-searching and imprisonment with "hardened drug-addicts", I'm tempted to say that is just hysterical fabrication due to the horror at a upper-chaste elite being called out on their bullshit. And if the entire arrest had been handled by the Diplomatic Security Service, I'd stake my reputation on it. But apparently she was handed over to the US Marshals for processing after the initial arrest, and I am less familiar with their methods. So I'm not sure.

The main issue here is that whoever authorized this arrest to go forward apparently wasn't thinking very hard about the bigger picture of it being right before the Indian elections. Much more attention should have been given to message-crafting and involving the Indian authorities more closely in the investigation so that the Indian government could have kept face by disowning her and allowing her to be quietly "Persona Non Grata'd". Clumsy and near-sighted.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Klaudandus » Wed Dec 18, 2013 5:01 am

Thanks for your input. Now I wonder how the US is gonna handle their security in India, since India is like "here, go get them".

Not sure if others are interested
http://www.stuffyoushouldknow.com/podca ... -immunity/

Now, reading about that girl and their family, apparently, they're known for doing shady business in India, but getting away with it for being upper caste and whatnot.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby fuzzygeek » Thu Dec 19, 2013 7:27 am

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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Klaudandus » Thu Dec 19, 2013 7:36 am

fuzzygeek wrote:Image


*facedesk*
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Klaudandus » Thu Dec 19, 2013 10:22 am

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-25441231
Brazil snubs Boeing as collateral damage as part of giving the finger to the US and the NSA.

And to be honest, I'm perfectly ok with that, given that I still don't think it was ethical of them to intercept Petrobras. You could make a better case for intercepting the brazilian government than their state-run petroleum company.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Darielle » Thu Dec 19, 2013 6:07 pm

Additionally, these kind of charges are fairly unsurprising. Attempted human trafficking and exploitation of domestic servants by diplomats from countries where such behavior is "culturally normal" is fairly common. They have their little low-chaste servant girl (and in the case of male diplomats, sex-slave) who comes from the urban slums and doesn't have any identity documents like a birth certificate or anything. So the diplomat gets something printed up (it's not a forgery if it's government-issued?) to satisfy the visa application requirements. We do the best we can to come up with a reason to say no, but often everything technically checks out and we can't come up with a good reason for refusing the visa.

As for the strip-searching and imprisonment with "hardened drug-addicts", I'm tempted to say that is just hysterical fabrication due to the horror at a upper-chaste elite being called out on their bullshit. And if the entire arrest had been handled by the Diplomatic Security Service, I'd stake my reputation on it. But apparently she was handed over to the US Marshals for processing after the initial arrest, and I am less familiar with their methods. So I'm not sure.

The main issue here is that whoever authorized this arrest to go forward apparently wasn't thinking very hard about the bigger picture of it being right before the Indian elections. Much more attention should have been given to message-crafting and involving the Indian authorities more closely in the investigation so that the Indian government could have kept face by disowning her and allowing her to be quietly "Persona Non Grata'd". Clumsy and near-sighted.


That last one gets a little weirder.

- She's seen as a "women's rights advocate"
- She obtained something against the employee from the High Court of India (I don't particularly trust any of the reporting on the specifics atm, and what she obtained varies from injunction/arrest warrant on blackmail or something else entirely). She's convinced someone in some authority that it's the maid who is up to shenanigans.
- The entire outrage is based on presumably what her father and her contacts can achieve. They're rich, they have a history of using money/power to get things they want against the rules, and so on. That may be the entire bloody reason a maid was even warranted.
- The last thing is that the agreement made with the employee may have been made by someone else entirely, and may have been negotiated (and even paid) in India completely. Not that that excuses her, as she should have been aware of the laws in the US, but it's a bit different if her initial agreement was to pay a higher salary than any maid would get back in India and give her a boost to the US (in the minds of the people being outraged back home in India). I find it more likely that her (or someone else in her employ) hired the maid in India, brought the maid to the US doing visa shenanigans, the maid was probably overworked by any normal standard (especially if she was expected to be available 24/7), and the maid or someone else was educated enough to know or find out what US minimum wage laws involve, and then that escalated into HER attempting to use contacts/money to discredit the maid not thinking that the maid would be smart enough or that the US legal system would ever get involved. Now there's a fun drama.

All of that being pure speculation of course. I do like how the dumbass politicians back in India are clamouring for a dropping of all charges based on her nonexistent diplomatic immunity, and will probably buy into villifying the maid in every way. I expect support will drop out from under them because the corruption will bubble forth and transform "government outrage at the US" into "public outrage at the government".
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Klaudandus » Thu Dec 19, 2013 6:24 pm

Yeah, the entire outrage is based on the fact that she was treated as if she was from a lower caste. Even if she was treated better than the average person in the US, its still inconceivable someone of her caste would be treated like that in India. The whole caste thing is still pretty prevalent.

Her and her family are filthy rich, and according to some articles, they were involved in some kind of housing fraud but got away with it.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Brekkie » Thu Dec 19, 2013 7:53 pm

Klaudandus wrote:Yeah, the entire outrage is based on the fact that she was treated as if she was from a lower caste. Even if she was treated better than the average person in the US, its still inconceivable someone of her caste would be treated like that in India. The whole caste thing is still pretty prevalent.

Her and her family are filthy rich, and according to some articles, they were involved in some kind of housing fraud but got away with it.


Yep, exactly.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Darielle » Thu Dec 19, 2013 7:59 pm

Klaudandus wrote:Yeah, the entire outrage is based on the fact that she was treated as if she was from a lower caste. Even if she was treated better than the average person in the US, its still inconceivable someone of her caste would be treated like that in India. The whole caste thing is still pretty prevalent.

Her and her family are filthy rich, and according to some articles, they were involved in some kind of housing fraud but got away with it.


Actually, it's a little more complex. Among other details in the building scam (one of them - there are more than one) are that she and her family qualified for it as a dalit. Caste isn't as big in this at all so much as sheer power/money and the idea that I'm pretty sure she believed, her father believed and all the people outraged about it believe that she DID have diplomatic immunity and a rising tide in India where people feel India is being treated poorly (especially in comparison to China) by the US. You'll see it in the comments all over the place.

Tack on that strip searching is this big "thing" (not just for higher-caste) for "hardened criminals" as opposed to just being standard procedure to prevent things like weapons going into prisons.

There was some outrage a while back about some Walmart planning to open in India (something about small shopkeepers which is frankly bullshit for reasons I can go into if you'd like), some stuff about US companies exploting workers in the subcontinent etc. and I'm pretty sure the politicians are trying to ride off that.
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