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Politics (formerly Election 2012)

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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Klaudandus » Fri Oct 04, 2013 8:25 pm

Melathys wrote:the way i see it, the fastest way for us to see change in this nation is to stop voting for the two parties that put us into this mess. just imagine the change we could see if everyone "wasted" their vote.
The Republicans were the third party at one point...


Yes. And like I said, I'd vote for a third party IF the third party was within striking distance, but because that is not the case, I'd rather vote for the lesser of evils.

Of course, this could also get started if they were to follow Indian's plan for their next elections
http://www.ndtv.com/article/cheat-sheet ... oll-424424
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Melathys » Fri Oct 04, 2013 9:02 pm

Klaudandus wrote:
Melathys wrote:the way i see it, the fastest way for us to see change in this nation is to stop voting for the two parties that put us into this mess. just imagine the change we could see if everyone "wasted" their vote.
The Republicans were the third party at one point...


Yes. And like I said, I'd vote for a third party IF the third party was within striking distance, but because that is not the case, I'd rather vote for the lesser of evils.

Of course, this could also get started if they were to follow Indian's plan for their next elections
http://www.ndtv.com/article/cheat-sheet ... oll-424424


The point is people complain about politics, and then keep voting for the same people/party over and over again...basically what you're doing.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Koatanga » Fri Oct 04, 2013 10:14 pm

Melathys wrote:The point is people complain about politics, and then keep voting for the same people/party over and over again...basically what you're doing.

My mother would vote for the devil himself if he ran as a Republican, on the grounds that Republicans support Christian values, even though they, as a party, are against programs that feed the hungry or clothe the naked and are willing to shut down the government over their opposition to healing the sick.

In any close election, votes by free-thinking people not supporting the primary opposition will be thrown away, because the party with the largest party-line voting bloc will win.

Perhaps in states where there are overwhelming majorities, some of the majority can lend support to third-party candidates, but it would be dangerous to do so in contested areas.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Paxen » Sat Oct 05, 2013 12:36 am

You need to overhaul your election system. First-past-the-post systems will never favor a third party.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Klaudandus » Sat Oct 05, 2013 4:19 am

Melathys wrote:The point is people complain about politics, and then keep voting for the same people/party over and over again...basically what you're doing.


I vote for Dems because I'd rather see them than Reps. It's the most logical choice in contested areas -- otherwise, the votes to the third party could cause the worst candidate be elected.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Nooska » Sat Oct 05, 2013 7:12 am

Paxen wrote:You need to overhaul your election system. First-past-the-post systems will never favor a third party.


This

Need to go from 1 person districts to representative numbers (State X has 30 congressmen - votes go 42% D, 40% R, and 18% 3rd party - 12.6 Congressmen for D, 12 for R and 5.4 for 3rd party - the one split 60/40 could go either way dependant on specific structuring.
Under 1 person districts, it would be 15/15 or 16/14 or somesuch dependant on how big the majorities wer ein each district.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Melathys » Sat Oct 05, 2013 9:11 am

Klaudandus wrote:
Melathys wrote:The point is people complain about politics, and then keep voting for the same people/party over and over again...basically what you're doing.


I vote for Dems because I'd rather see them than Reps. It's the most logical choice in contested areas -- otherwise, the votes to the third party could cause the worst candidate be elected.


I guess agree to disagree. For me, it used to be that I vote along Republican lines, but that was when republicans stood for small government and personal liberty. The way it is now, both parties are the greater evil, so I'll do my small part to break the two party system. Unless there's actually a good candidate from either party.

I guess I'm hoping that enough Republicans are disgusted enough with the Republican party to vote for a third party...much like myself. The Libertarian party is more Republican these days than the Republican party. I mean, the past two elections I would rather have had Obama as president than the Republican nominee...and I consider myself Republican, or at least I used to. Well, I do still consider myself a Republican, but as they are supposed to be, not as they've become. Its like when they asked Ron Paul about how he seems to be so out of step with the rest of the Republican party, and he responded "Well, perhaps I'm the only Republican left."
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Klaudandus » Sat Oct 05, 2013 2:09 pm

Melathys wrote:
Klaudandus wrote:
Melathys wrote:The point is people complain about politics, and then keep voting for the same people/party over and over again...basically what you're doing.


I vote for Dems because I'd rather see them than Reps. It's the most logical choice in contested areas -- otherwise, the votes to the third party could cause the worst candidate be elected.


I guess agree to disagree. For me, it used to be that I vote along Republican lines, but that was when republicans stood for small government and personal liberty. The way it is now, both parties are the greater evil, so I'll do my small part to break the two party system. Unless there's actually a good candidate from either party.

I guess I'm hoping that enough Republicans are disgusted enough with the Republican party to vote for a third party...much like myself. The Libertarian party is more Republican these days than the Republican party. I mean, the past two elections I would rather have had Obama as president than the Republican nominee...and I consider myself Republican, or at least I used to. Well, I do still consider myself a Republican, but as they are supposed to be, not as they've become. Its like when they asked Ron Paul about how he seems to be so out of step with the rest of the Republican party, and he responded "Well, perhaps I'm the only Republican left."


You kind of proved my point.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Melathys » Sat Oct 05, 2013 2:43 pm

and what would that point be?

my point is that the two big party choices are so bad that Americans should start considering other parties that are actually more in line with their ideals. Just because, say, Republicans used to stand for limited government and personal liberties, doesn't mean they do any more. People have become so blinded by the status quo that they refuse to do any critical thinking. "oh, I watch CNN/Fox, I know what's going on."....
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Klaudandus » Sat Oct 05, 2013 3:16 pm

Melathys wrote:and what would that point be?


I would rather have had Obama as president than the Republican nominee...


And my point is that is the very reason why I voted for Obama, even though it didn't matter because Texas is still pretty red when it comes to presidential elections -- but in a contested state, going for the third party could have made Obama lose that state, and possibly the election, thus giving the Republican nominee the presidency.

Having the Libertarian party win would be the best scenario, but if it falls through, it could cause the worst scenario come true -- thus I vote to prevent the worst scenario, in my view.

It is argued that's the reason why George HW Bush didn't win, because Ross Perot drew conservative votes away from him in order for Clinton to win the election.

I guess I just tend to vote pragmatically, rather than idealistically.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Koatanga » Sat Oct 05, 2013 4:35 pm

In a place like New Zealand, there is no President - we have a Prime Minister. The Prime Minister is the head dude of the majority group in Parliament. That group can be a single party, or a coalition of multiple parties. Thus small parties not only can survive, but can be kingmakers with lots of power. Don't want to pass our bill? Fine, we'll go side with the other people and break your majority.

But in the US, the President is voted independently of Congress, and I don't believe even needs a majority - a state can be split 34/33/33 and all electoral college votes would go to the 34% group.

So whereas in New Zealand you can support the National party by voting for one of its allies, such as the ACT party, in the US if you don't vote for a majority party you're pissing away your vote.

It's not a flaw of the voters, but of the system.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Klaudandus » Sat Oct 05, 2013 5:24 pm

Koatanga wrote:In a place like New Zealand, there is no President - we have a Prime Minister. The Prime Minister is the head dude of the majority group in Parliament. That group can be a single party, or a coalition of multiple parties. Thus small parties not only can survive, but can be kingmakers with lots of power. Don't want to pass our bill? Fine, we'll go side with the other people and break your majority.

But in the US, the President is voted independently of Congress, and I don't believe even needs a majority - a state can be split 34/33/33 and all electoral college votes would go to the 34% group.

So whereas in New Zealand you can support the National party by voting for one of its allies, such as the ACT party, in the US if you don't vote for a majority party you're pissing away your vote.

It's not a flaw of the voters, but of the system.


Oh, I agree it's a problem with the system -- and should be changed -- but my pragmatism lies in that I try to maximize my return based on the system that is in place. Even if my maximizing relies on just trying to cockblock whoever I consider the worst candidate.

If the system were to change to be friendlier to third parties, I'd vote accordingly.

In the meantime, you shouldn't blame me for voting with the intention of being a political cockblocker.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Klaudandus » Sat Oct 05, 2013 5:33 pm

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_ ... ators.html

A couple of comments I saw on this article.
A lot of people don't seem to realize how unprecedented this Republican stunt really is. We've had government shutdowns over policy before, but it was almost always over a REAL negotiation where both sides had something to offer. In this case, the Republicans have demanded the overturning of the Democrats' most signature legislation from the past decade, and return for this they've offered F*CKING NOTHING. It's insane.

THAT'S why the Dems finally grew a spine, and THAT'S why this has been compared to extortion and hostage taking, because that's exactly what this f*cking is. I've already decided I'm never voting for any Republican again for the rest of my life, but I suspect this has convinced more than a few other people to do the same. It's unforgivable. YOU F*CKING LOST.


and

This was the perfectly WORST fight for the GOP to choose.

They gave Democrats no room to retreat, the Democrats lose nothing by fighting, and the GOP offered Democrats nothing in return for a surrender (or partial surrender)

"Art of War" was a business cliche in the 1980's, but Sun Tzu nailed it when he described how you want to set the environment of a fight before you start the fight. The GOP violated those principles in almost every way.



In the mean time, I'm enjoying seeing people that normally stay out of politics in my social media circle put the blame squarely on the GOP, and also seeing how the GOP fractures from within.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Melathys » Sat Oct 05, 2013 7:36 pm

there are certainly faults in the system, but voters aren't faultless.

I'm rather hoping this destroys the Republican party and the Libertarian party steps up. Reps/Dems have gone so far to either side I'm beginning to think the only path back to the middle is the destruction of one of the two major parties.

Actually, I think I'm going to donate to the Libertarian party when I get home. Now is the time for them to move, they'll need whatever help anyone can give.

I also think that if a third party moves into one of the top two, we might also finally see some real voter/electoral reforms. So basically all kinds of win if we can destroy one of the two major parties, and the Republicans have set themselves up to be the dodo.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Klaudandus » Sat Oct 05, 2013 8:11 pm

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