Politics (formerly Election 2012)

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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Fivelives » Wed Jul 17, 2013 3:36 pm

If my memory is correct, the difference between Stand Your Ground and Castle Law is that Castle Law is only applicable in or on your own property (or property that you're leasing)?

If that is indeed the case, I would be a firm advocate for all Stand Your Ground states to switch to Castle Law, just to prevent shit like the Zimmerman/Martin shit from happening. Shoot someone in public and you should damned well go to jail, for public endangerment if nothing else - odds are that opening fire at someone in a situation where your hands are shaking due to an adrenaline rush, you're going to miss. And bullets don't just magically stop at the distance they should have hit what you were nominally aiming at.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Klaudandus » Wed Jul 17, 2013 3:40 pm

Lieris wrote:Trayvon tried to avoid confrontation, his instinct was flight. Zimmerman kept stalking him, he was always looking for an altercation.


That's what I'm in part referring too. I think I'd have switched from Flight to Fight if I was getting harassed as well.



And now for the other side of the coin...
Ted 'I Poop my pants to avoid the draft' Nugent eloquently and calmly gives his opinion on the Zimmerman/Martin case: http://rare.us/story/nugent-zimmerman-v ... te=Unknown

PS. Yeah, it's as racist as you'd expect.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Lieris » Wed Jul 17, 2013 3:44 pm

Fivelives wrote:If that is indeed the case, I would be a firm advocate for all Stand Your Ground states to switch to Castle Law, just to prevent shit like the Zimmerman/Martin shit from happening. Shoot someone in public and you should damned well go to jail, for public endangerment if nothing else - odds are that opening fire at someone in a situation where your hands are shaking due to an adrenaline rush, you're going to miss. And bullets don't just magically stop at the distance they should have hit what you were nominally aiming at.


The idea of civilians carrying firearms in public and playing policeman is simultaneously terrifying and insane to me (and nearly all Europeans for that matter).

Klaudandus wrote:And now for the other side of the coin...
Ted 'I Poop my pants to avoid the draft' Nugent eloquently and calmly gives his opinion on the Zimmerman/Martin case: http://rare.us/story/nugent-zimmerman-v ... te=Unknown

PS. Yeah, it's as racist as you'd expect.


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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Klaudandus » Wed Jul 17, 2013 3:52 pm

Fivelives wrote:If my memory is correct, the difference between Stand Your Ground and Castle Law is that Castle Law is only applicable in or on your own property (or property that you're leasing)?


Pretty much. Several years ago, a local case had a guy shooting, and killing, a teenager after he and his friend broke into his house. There was a big stink about it but was acquitted in the end.

The kid had a record, the kid had a weapon (a knife) and had burglarized that house in the past.

The shooting happened inside his house.

That said, also in Texas, there was another case where a guy shot and killed another burglar but was declared guilty. The difference was that the shooting started inside the house, and the burglar was wounded, but fled. The owner chased after him and fired a shot that fatally wounded the burglar in the middle of the street after he had already left the property -- thus castle law not applying.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby fuzzygeek » Wed Jul 17, 2013 4:02 pm

Lieris wrote:Zimmerman is a racist and a murderer and his supporters are cut from the same cloth as he is.


/facepalm

This is such a caricature of sloppy thinking I have a hard time believing it's not satire.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Lieris » Wed Jul 17, 2013 4:23 pm

fuzzygeek wrote:
Lieris wrote:Zimmerman is a racist and a murderer and his supporters are cut from the same cloth as he is.


/facepalm

This is such a caricature of sloppy thinking I have a hard time believing it's not satire.


Facepalm yourself.

A murderer has a significant number of cheerleaders and apologists who shamelessly victim blame a teenager for his own murder and smear him even post-trial: That is twisted and there is undoubtedly a racial element to it.

Whether you think it was manslaughter or murder, that's another debate but anyone who agrees with the acquittal for shooting dead an unarmed teenager is probably a racist and I am more than comfortable with that assumption. Ta.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby aureon » Wed Jul 17, 2013 4:26 pm

Lieris wrote:Zimmerman is a racist and a murderer and his supporters are cut from the same cloth as he is. It's a joke that this pile of human excrement walks free and with the murder weapon. This is a self-appointed sherif with a criminal record who stalked then murdered an unarmed teenager and yet he has cheerleaders who are continuing to vilify Trayvon and blame him for his own murder. Shameless and gross.

This is a good opinion piece IMO: http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree ... ys-verdict


Even if i wholeheartily agree with you, the law is the law.

You do not burn people on the electric chair on pure suspects. There's not enough proof that he did not comply with Florida's retarded law.

The justice system has done all it should have done, the blame is on the legislative system.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby fuzzygeek » Wed Jul 17, 2013 4:35 pm

Lieris wrote:Whether you think it was manslaughter or murder, that's another debate but anyone who agrees with the acquittal for shooting dead an unarmed teenager is probably a racist and I am more than comfortable with that assumption. Ta.


It always makes me sad to find people so willing to make assumptions -- and to be more than comfortable with assumptions -- about other people. Isn't that behaviour exactly what is so bad about racism?
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Klaudandus » Wed Jul 17, 2013 4:47 pm

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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Pfife » Wed Jul 17, 2013 5:07 pm

Hold on to your butts, I'm going to try and change gears.

OMG WE CAN'T HOLD PHARMACEUTICALS ACCOUNTABLE ANYMORE!

http://www.whiteoutpress.com/articles/q32013/supreme-court-rules-drug-companies-exempt-from-lawsuits/
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Koatanga » Wed Jul 17, 2013 7:08 pm

Pfife wrote:Hold on to your butts, I'm going to try and change gears.

OMG WE CAN'T HOLD PHARMACEUTICALS ACCOUNTABLE ANYMORE!

http://www.whiteoutpress.com/articles/q32013/supreme-court-rules-drug-companies-exempt-from-lawsuits/


In some ways I can see their point. In the US drug patents are good for 20 years. That means the drug underwent duly diligent scrutiny for FDA approval and had been on the market for 20 years before the generic was produced. During that time, it is reasonable to conclude that any possible side-effect would most likely have come up. In this particular case, it didn't.

I can understand suing for negligence, but it's just not reasonable to test every conceivable human DNA combination and its interaction with a drug prior to approval. There's no negligence producing a drug that has been on the market for 20 years if it is produced exactly the same way as the original, so there should be no liability. If they produced it wrong, or altered the formula from the original, then there's room for liability, but when one person in millions has a bad reaction to a tried-and-true drug, that's just unfortunate.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Klaudandus » Wed Jul 17, 2013 7:14 pm

Koatanga wrote:
Pfife wrote:Hold on to your butts, I'm going to try and change gears.

OMG WE CAN'T HOLD PHARMACEUTICALS ACCOUNTABLE ANYMORE!

http://www.whiteoutpress.com/articles/q32013/supreme-court-rules-drug-companies-exempt-from-lawsuits/


In some ways I can see their point. In the US drug patents are good for 20 years. That means the drug underwent duly diligent scrutiny for FDA approval and had been on the market for 20 years before the generic was produced. During that time, it is reasonable to conclude that any possible side-effect would most likely have come up. In this particular case, it didn't.

I can understand suing for negligence, but it's just not reasonable to test every conceivable human DNA combination and its interaction with a drug prior to approval. There's no negligence producing a drug that has been on the market for 20 years if it is produced exactly the same way as the original, so there should be no liability. If they produced it wrong, or altered the formula from the original, then there's room for liability, but when one person in millions has a bad reaction to a tried-and-true drug, that's just unfortunate.


Agreed.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Jabari » Thu Jul 18, 2013 11:14 am

Going to take Klaud's advice, I think. There's no point in trying to debate when one side won't do it honestly.

Fridmarr wrote:
Lieris wrote:Zimmerman is a racist and a murderer <snip>

<snip>
So out of curiosity, if Zimmerman was returning to his truck, and was jumped by Martin, does that change your opinion?

Lieris: You have responded to THREE different posts after Fridmarr asked this, and yet you somehow managed to completely miss this one. Curious, that.

Klaudandus wrote:But if you ever link me to NRO or Freepers... I will retaliate. >=P

Fair enough, so long as someone gets to do the same after you link to HuffPo or Salon. ;)

(Actually, NRO does have a couple of good columnists - Kevin Williamson, Veronique de Rugy, and Mark Steyn. They're pretty terrible other than those three, though.)

I would strongly recommend that you add the following two sites to your daily reading list:
http://market-ticker.org/ (Karl Denninger's Market Ticker - mostly financial stuff, but that's extremely important right now and he touches on politics from time to time)

http://ace.mu.nu/ (Ace of Spades HQ)

Now I'm not saying that you have to agree with everything (or even most things) written there. You probably won't. It may even infuriate you. However, these are intelligent people writing - I would caution you about dismissing them out-of-hand. Read, fully, for comprehension, then do some critical thinking of your own instead of just jumping to your "programmed" response - they call it "TV Programming" for a reason, you know!

(Note that neither site is a "bastion of Republicanism". They both hammer on Rs just as much as Ds.)

They will also likely expose you to a number of stories that are being hidden from you by the mainstream media.


As far as everything else goes Politics-wise: It's clear that we have two different countries occupying the territory known as the "United States". The divisions keep getting bigger and more acrimonious. I can only hope that it is resolved peacefully (via secession) rather than with blood, but I fear that it won't be.

"All politics in this country is now just dress rehearsal for civil war." -- Billy Beck
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Klaudandus » Thu Jul 18, 2013 1:47 pm

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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Lieris » Thu Jul 18, 2013 3:29 pm

Jabari wrote:Lieris: You have responded to THREE different posts after Fridmarr asked this, and yet you somehow managed to completely miss this one. Curious, that.


Not really, I just don't see the point in a drawn out argument (something I don't have the time for) with someone I know I will never see eye to eye with over the reliability of Zimmerman's testimony.

Given that you are a far right crazy who is not so subtly licking his lips at the thought of a civil war (something which will not happen outside the realm of Tea Party wet dreams) I am not going to argue with you either.

Here's some cartoon level evil happening on my shores: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/po ... 18029.html

Loathsome.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Klaudandus » Thu Jul 18, 2013 5:26 pm

I love this: http://youtu.be/rPOKm20wP4s -- it gets really good at around the 4:30 mark
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Fridmarr » Thu Jul 18, 2013 6:23 pm

Lieris wrote:Not really, I just don't see the point in a drawn out argument (something I don't have the time for) with someone I know I will never see eye to eye with over the reliability of Zimmerman's testimony.

Given that you are a far right crazy who is not so subtly licking his lips at the thought of a civil war (something which will not happen outside the realm of Tea Party wet dreams) I am not going to argue with you either.


Wow nice ad hominem. The lip licking was a particularly nice, yet amazingly hypocritical touch given your stance on Zimmerman. For the record, you actually were not asked about the reliability of anyone's statement.

If you are just going to post judgements and personal attacks and not actually engage in discussion, you can kindly see your way out of the thread. Asylum or not, we aren't going to be feeding trolls.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby fuzzygeek » Thu Jul 18, 2013 9:30 pm

I don't think Lieris is intentionally trolling, to be fair.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby KysenMurrin » Fri Jul 19, 2013 12:24 am

Fridmarr wrote:
Lieris wrote:Not really, I just don't see the point in a drawn out argument (something I don't have the time for) with someone I know I will never see eye to eye with over the reliability of Zimmerman's testimony.

Given that you are a far right crazy who is not so subtly licking his lips at the thought of a civil war (something which will not happen outside the realm of Tea Party wet dreams) I am not going to argue with you either.


Wow nice ad hominem. The lip licking was a particularly nice, yet amazingly hypocritical touch given your stance on Zimmerman. For the record, you actually were not asked about the reliability of anyone's statement.

To anyone who doesn't believe Zimmerman's testimony is reliable, asking what they'd think if it was is totally irrelevant.

Because the reliability of his testimony is the real question, not whether a person's legal defence case says the right thing to get a not guilty charge (saying something that'd get a "not guilty" is the entire point of the defence case, after all).
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Aubade » Fri Jul 19, 2013 5:07 am

Lieris wrote:Not really, I just don't see the point in a drawn out argument (something I don't have the time for) with someone I know I will never see eye to eye with over the reliability of Zimmerman's testimony.


I'm really confused by you.

Are you really as soapboxy as you are claiming to be here, or are you trolling us all?

Were you there in the bushes watching the zimmerman/trayvon confrontation go down? No? Then I don't trust your every word, and you shouldn't trust anyone who wasn't there.

The ACTUAL facts leave a lot to interpretation, and I won't start debating the actual trial. The outrage of "Open Season on black kids" etc, just makes me sick. It was ONE FREAKING TRIAL, with a lot of grey area.


Lieris wrote:Given that you are a far right crazy who is not so subtly licking his lips at the thought of a civil war (something which will not happen outside the realm of Tea Party wet dreams) I am not going to argue with you either.


This line leads me to believe you're simply trolling us all. I don't agree with a lot of his arguments, but I can guarantee you he's not insane, And not a crazy right-winger. Just a little bit mis-guided. (sorry, I can't fully support anyone who votes republican =P <3)
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Klaudandus » Fri Jul 19, 2013 5:46 am

http://www.sandiego6.com/story/hastings ... n-20130714
So writer who pissed off the army dies in really weird accident, after having emailed some coworkers that he was into a really big story, and is cremated before the family can do an independent autopsy on the body.

Not sure what exactly happened, but the authorities aren't helping by reinforcing tin-foil hat conspiracy theories.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Lieris » Fri Jul 19, 2013 6:00 am

KysenMurrin wrote:To anyone who doesn't believe Zimmerman's testimony is reliable, asking what they'd think if it was is totally irrelevant.

Because the reliability of his testimony is the real question, not whether a person's legal defence case says the right thing to get a not guilty charge (saying something that'd get a "not guilty" is the entire point of the defence case, after all).


Exactly, I think there is no point in a very predictable circular bad tempered argument. That's not "trolling" or being sanctimonious, I just don't feel the need to "win" at internet debates.

If you want to turn a blind eye to the very obvious institutional racism in your country (mine has it too btw) and aren't outraged at a man playing wannabe vigilante, chasing and shooting dead a teenager yet getting off scot free (and there wasn't even going to be a trial initially!) then there is something very wrong with you and it says a lot as to the value your society places on the lives of black people.

I also don't feel the need to discuss with someone who votes for a party who are openly racist, classist, homophobic and who hate women. To me that says enough about that person to not want to associate with them. You Americans might be so desensitised to the GOP hateful rhetoric that you give a free pass to such shameless bigotry but that's why their views are so mainstream in polite society, because you legitimise them instead of calling them out for being racist/misogynist etc. I might be blunt but at least I don't make excuses for the American Taliban. If you are a white, straight, able-bodied, financially solvent male then this stuff might not make you angry but if you have any measure of empathy within you then you should be able to at least see why it angers those who are being oppressed by far right politicians and their supporters who prop up the power structures that maintain the kyriarchy.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Fridmarr » Fri Jul 19, 2013 6:39 am

That's absurd, the question was just a hypothetical to understand your position.

George Zimmerman was not on trial as a representative of the institution. This trial was not about America and our racial history. The trial was about the events that unfolded that evening, and that's the standard that must be used to evaluate it. Judging those events, and wanting to put a man in prison over anything other than his actions, is no different than all those terrible evils you mention. Rationalize it any way you want.

Lastly, we don't vote for parties here. There's plenty of variance between the individuals and the party platform itself. It's also the second time you levied those claims at me, and the last time you utterly refused (I'm starting to see a pattern) to defend them against any scrutiny when I asked. That said, I don't think we've actually had a discussion on our voting histories. My guess is that your assumptions on them are not very accurate, but clearly a lack of accurate information hasn't proven itself to be an obstacle to your prejudices, so flame away.

I don't care about the bluntness. The personal attacks are another issue, especially when you aren't willing to even discuss them. You just come in here like Rush Limbaugh inciting the crowd and flaming everyone you disagree with, while offering up precious little substance. This is still a discussion forum, if you don't want to discuss, then don't bother participating.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby KysenMurrin » Fri Jul 19, 2013 7:06 am

Let's look at the question, then.
Fridmarr wrote:
Lieris wrote:Zimmerman is a racist and a murderer <snip>

<snip>
So out of curiosity, if Zimmerman was returning to his truck, and was jumped by Martin, does that change your opinion?

I don't think there's any way to know for certain about the killing. But the racist part? Yes, he probably was, regardless of how the shooting happened.

He say a young black man he didn't recognise and assumed he was up to no good. To the point that during the 911 call he had clearly already passed judgement and was intent on keeping track of Martin to make sure he didn't get away with whatever suspicious thing he was supposedly there doing.

I'm not talking about big showy screaming-the-n-word racism here. This is internalised racist stereotyping that comes from exposure to the wider culture which is institutionally racist.

Did Zimmerman force a confrontation by following Martin? Did Martin attack Zimmerman after he'd stopped following him? We'll probably never know. What we do know is that he saw a young black man walking through his neighbourhood and immediately assumed guilt.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Klaudandus » Fri Jul 19, 2013 7:24 am

http://blog.chron.com/texaspolitics/201 ... cmpid=hpts
20 weeks is so yesterday! Lets ban abortion at 6 weeks!
Down the slippery slope in Texas I tell you.

The Ericsson guy was right, Texas is gonna see an increase in coathangers purchases. I should buy stock in them.

Am I allowed to call them old white rich dudes yet? :p
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