Politics (formerly Election 2012)

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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby cdan » Mon Jul 15, 2013 11:50 am

Flex wrote:
Jabari wrote:
The other problem of course is the electorate is just ... savage. Willfully ignorant, horribly mal- (or un-)educated, and a vast majority treat vice as virtue. This country has lost most of what made it civilized, and I'm afraid the only way back involves bloodshed, given that secession won't be allowed.


I am 100% sure that the electorate has never been educated enough to even come close to this romanticized vision that some people have of the past.


Voters have always been politically illiterate. Even the roman politicos knew the value of bread and circuses.

What is different these days is the extent to which pseudonyms need to be used for old fashioned ideas. When the right want to bash racial minorities they use words like Urban and Immigrant.

One big change I am keen on is the fact that the bigots have started identifying themselves as outside of the mainstream by painting themselves and their ideas as victims of the "lamestream" media and similar. That is a significant view as it spells an acceptance of their marginalisation. As soon as you admit that you no longer play a central role in life you are admitting you are heading towards irrelevance. I just hope that, in the US especially, the bigots don't cause too much damage on the way down (as they are trying to do in various southern states with their pernicious abortion laws).
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Nooska » Mon Jul 15, 2013 12:41 pm

Well the direct election of a representative (rather than apportioned representatives) in districts, did make the electorate "better educated" back when it was smaller, and the election was held by people showing up and selecting in some sort of common session - they knew who the person they selected was - it was someone they knew, personally (thought maybe not socially).
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Qeeze » Mon Jul 15, 2013 4:54 pm

Most people have little to no interest in politics, and unfortunately when they actually do form opinions, it's usually based more on emotion {or the bent of the media they follow), than sound reasoning. People just don't think things through on their own. They rely on being told by someone else what they should be for or against. So I have a few random questions I'd like to discuss.

Why do election cycles last so long?

Why do some states have far more clout than warranted.

Why is redistricting & the Census done every 10 years still? This isn't the 19th century anymore after all.

Why don't we have a reliable methods of voting with systems that are actually accurate, with results tabulated & announced instantly?

Why do we allow gerrymandering safe districts regardless of which party it favors?

I have lots more but I kept it to 5.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Amirya » Mon Jul 15, 2013 6:50 pm

The short answer:

Because no one is willing to take the steps necessary to fix the garbage that is US politics.

(Sadly, that also includes me, because I just can't give a damn about the US.)

The long answer:

Will have to come from someone else who has more knowledge than I do.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Nooska » Mon Jul 15, 2013 11:21 pm

I gotta ask, for teh first question there "why do election cycles last so long?" - whar are you referring to there? the every 2/4)/6?) years a specific person is up for re-election? or the time of being in an actual race/contest?
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby fuzzygeek » Tue Jul 16, 2013 8:01 am

wrt cycle lengths, you can campaign for the fucking job, or you can *do* the fucking job. Hard to do a good job trying to do both at once.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Klaudandus » Tue Jul 16, 2013 8:20 am

fuzzygeek wrote:wrt cycle lengths, you can campaign for the fucking job, or you can *do* the fucking job. Hard to do a good job trying to do both at once.


I fucking hate that. So I agree.

Also, it would be nice if there were term limits for everyone. I'm annoyed several senators, both at state level and national level have been there since I was in middle school.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Klaudandus » Tue Jul 16, 2013 8:22 am

Was tempted to post this on amusements section instead...

http://snipelondon.com/scoop/emirates-c ... next-mayor

So, London Mayor signs a 10 year contract with UAE to sponsor a car, the contract bans criticism on the contract itself plus also bans making any business with Israel.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby fuzzygeek » Tue Jul 16, 2013 8:55 am

I would argue part of the problem with American politics is that few people think it's strange that one can be a "career politician."
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Klaudandus » Tue Jul 16, 2013 9:07 am

I do think its strange... and disgusting... mostly disgusting to be honest. >=/
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby cdan » Tue Jul 16, 2013 9:10 am

Klaudandus wrote:Was tempted to post this on amusements section instead...

http://snipelondon.com/scoop/emirates-c ... next-mayor

So, London Mayor signs a 10 year contract with UAE to sponsor a car, the contract bans criticism on the contract itself plus also bans making any business with Israel.


Not much wrong with limiting trade with a state that practices apartheid. A pity it is a contract with a state with an equally poor human rights record though.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Klaudandus » Tue Jul 16, 2013 9:27 am

Yeah, don't get me started on Israel, despite being of jewish descent... I mean, they love Prisoner X so much that after the last one died, they decided to go ahead and get a replacement one... *sigh*

But seriously, it's not so much about the contract telling you that you should not make business with a specific country -- what amused me the most was about the contract specifically barring upcoming administrations from criticizing the contract in the first place.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby cdan » Tue Jul 16, 2013 10:03 am

Klaudandus wrote:Yeah, don't get me started on Israel, despite being of jewish descent... I mean, they love Prisoner X so much that after the last one died, they decided to go ahead and get a replacement one... *sigh*

But seriously, it's not so much about the contract telling you that you should not make business with a specific country -- what amused me the most was about the contract specifically barring upcoming administrations from criticizing the contract in the first place.


Funniest thing of all is that Little Lord Silly-hair is going to be the next Prime Minister.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Klaudandus » Tue Jul 16, 2013 10:04 am

Well, I'm not that familiar with british politics, so I had no idea that the london mayor was poised to be the new PM.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby cdan » Tue Jul 16, 2013 10:14 am

Klaudandus wrote:Well, I'm not that familiar with british politics, so I had no idea that the london mayor was poised to be the new PM.


It is up for debate, but Boris seems headed for the 'tory leadership by the looks of things. He's a buffoon so people love him and seem to forget his horrible politics and questionable morality.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby KysenMurrin » Tue Jul 16, 2013 11:07 am

Yeah. He's popular because people can laugh at him, which is a terrible reason for someone to win elections, but unfortunately he has an actual shot at it.

I'm hoping the next election will see Labour increase its majority again. Governments in power tend to decline in popularity, and the Lib Dems will almost certainly lose seats regardless. Not that I'm a big Labour fan right now, but we need the Conservatives out before they do something stupid about Europe.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Jabari » Tue Jul 16, 2013 11:46 am

Klaudandus wrote:Ok, then... uh, what about this?
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-201_162-574 ... ing-shots/


I don't know anything about that case right now. I'd have to look around some and get back to you. From a brief glance, I'm not sure what point you're trying to make, though. Care to expand?

Please note that the linked article has been updated since you posted that, so I can't tell what's different between what you read and what I just did. *shrug*


As an bonus for you Klaud:
More "War on Women" from the Republicans:
http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-filner-claims-20130715,0,6397291.story
:wink:
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Klaudandus » Tue Jul 16, 2013 11:50 am

Jabari wrote:I don't know anything about that case right now. I'd have to look around some and get back to you. From a brief glance, I'm not sure what point you're trying to make, though. Care to expand?

Please note that the linked article has been updated since you posted that, so I can't tell what's different between what you read and what I just did. *shrug*


I just wonder why Stand your Ground was valid when it took someone's life, and not in the case of firing warning shots in order to deter your attacker. O_o
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Klaudandus » Tue Jul 16, 2013 2:03 pm

Bringing back the abortion debate a bit

Law of Unintended Consequences
http://news.yahoo.com/more-texas-women- ... 22442.html

And here's the American Congress of Ob-Gyns statement on the Texas bill
http://www.acog.org/About_ACOG/News_Roo ... egislation

And the Texas Hospital Associationg
http://www.tha.org/HealthCareProviders/ ... %20session).pdf

I know the Texas Medical Association also opposed the bill, but can't find a link to their actual statement.

And tidbit from another article:
Sen. John Whitmire, a Houston Democrat, said during the debate that it was clear the bill was part of national conservative agenda attempting to ban abortion and infringe on women's rights one state at a time. He pressed Hegar on why the Texas Medical Association, Texas Hospital Association and the American College of Obstetrics and Gynecology opposed the bill.

He asked Sen. Glen Hegar of Katy, the bill's Republican author, how he could ignore these experts.

"There are differences in the medical profession," Hegar insisted, rejecting the criticism. "I don't believe this legislation will majorly impede the doctor-patient relationship."


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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Amirya » Tue Jul 16, 2013 3:59 pm

Oh yes, because a related field of medicine is different.

Totally should have consulted with brain surgeons, psychiatrists, and dentists instead.

Morons.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby fuzzygeek » Tue Jul 16, 2013 4:21 pm

Klaudandus wrote:I just wonder why Stand your Ground was valid when it took someone's life, and not in the case of firing warning shots in order to deter your attacker. O_o


From TFA, she left the house, got a gun, and came back into the house.

According to the judge's order, "there is insufficient evidence that the Defendant reasonably believed deadly force was needed to prevent death or great bodily harm to herself," and that the fact that she came back into the home, instead of leaving out the front or back door "is inconsistent with a person who is in genuine fear for her life."


The 20 year sentence is a byproduct of adhering to stupid laws.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Lieris » Tue Jul 16, 2013 5:20 pm

KysenMurrin wrote:Yeah. He's popular because people can laugh at him, which is a terrible reason for someone to win elections, but unfortunately he has an actual shot at it.


He's also WAY smarter and a lot more ruthless than people realise. Boris is someone who is obsessed with power and he's way better at playing the politics game than anyone else in the tory party. People think he is a buffoon so are less guarded around him and that's what makes him so dangerous.

I'm hoping the next election will see Labour increase its majority again. Governments in power tend to decline in popularity, and the Lib Dems will almost certainly lose seats regardless. Not that I'm a big Labour fan right now, but we need the Conservatives out before they do something stupid about Europe.


I can't stand any of them personally but the way tories utterly delight in being irredeemable bastards is a special kind of sickening. I still could never bring myself to vote labour because they're a bunch of Thatcherite neoliberal authoritarians in thrall to corporations too who will jump on the "scrounger" rhetoric bandwagon as readily as the tories. :(

I really hope we don't have any kind of referendum on Europe because the British public is too stupid and brain washed by tory/ukip/DM/torygraph etc. lies to make an informed decision on something that important. Luckily I have two passports so I have a parachute! ;)
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Klaudandus » Tue Jul 16, 2013 5:38 pm

Amirya wrote:Oh yes, because a related field of medicine is different.

Totally should have consulted with brain surgeons, psychiatrists, and dentists instead.

Morons.


One of the Reproductive Health experts brought in by the Republicans while discussing the bill was an ophthalmologist.

When one person pointed it out, another senator had that person removed.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Amirya » Tue Jul 16, 2013 6:15 pm

Ok, I know you live in Texas, but seriously...can we just give it back to Mexico?

I mean, that falls under the same logic that because I handle car insurance, I am equally qualified to discuss the merits of Obamacare in Congress.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby KysenMurrin » Wed Jul 17, 2013 1:06 am

Lieris wrote:I can't stand any of them personally but the way tories utterly delight in being irredeemable bastards is a special kind of sickening. I still could never bring myself to vote labour because they're a bunch of Thatcherite neoliberal authoritarians in thrall to corporations too who will jump on the "scrounger" rhetoric bandwagon as readily as the tories. :(

Speaking of the scrounger archetype, I was laughing yesterday at a news article saying the government claims that news of the upcoming benefits cap has caused 12,000 people to get jobs. It was the most ridiculous spin: Since they started requiring the Job Centre people to mention the benefits cap, 12k people found work, so obviously it was the cap that made them do it.

The government is equating correlation to causation because it feeds into that whole "people on benefits don't actually need it" narrative, despite the fact that it makes no sense whatsoever that a) 12,000 unemployed people could just suddenly decide to be employed as soon as they hear of a change in circumstances (not just decide to try, but to actually get jobs, in this economic climate), and b) 12k people would decide to get a job because of a change that will only affect 40,000 households.

I really hope we don't have any kind of referendum on Europe because the British public is too stupid and brain washed by tory/ukip/DM/torygraph etc. lies to make an informed decision on something that important. Luckily I have two passports so I have a parachute! ;)

I have in all seriousness started to consider emigrating in protest if Britain exits the EU. Not sure how realistic that plan would be, though - would depend on money and employment.

Some people seem to think it's inherently wrong to give power to organisations that aren't "your" nation, but that's just short-sighted, small-minded xenophobia and nationalism that doesn't really have much logic behind it (and they never go the whole way down the rabbit hole and suggest local rule for all the counties etc). Other anti-EU folks are just being economically selfish, treating international business as a zero-sum competition where success in their home territory is all that matters.

Ultimately my position would be that we'd be better off cooperating than obstructing, and we'd be better off trying to improve the EU from within.

Unfortunately I think a referendum is likely. I said I think that Labour will gain in 2015, but there's still a fair chance they won't get the required majority, and the Lib Dems will decide to keep the current coalition going.

I voted Yes to AV, on an "at least it's better than what we do now" basis, but alas the public ate up the No campaign. It's always easier to get people to support "tradition". AV would have allowed us to begin breaking away from this two-and-a-half party system, made it possible for others to gain ground.

I don't know what I'll do come the 2015 elections. I had decided to vote my conscience and not on a lesser-evil basis, but at this time it might be necessary to vote Labour for the best shot at getting the Tories out.
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