Politics (formerly Election 2012)

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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Klaudandus » Fri Jul 05, 2013 11:03 am

I think is that my points are taken reductio ad absurdum -- probably my fault for the language I use since I use a lot of hyperbolic, but it seems my point is then taken further to the extreme.

If women are not in charge of the legislation, then at least the legislators should try to meet them in the middle. What I mostly see is uninformed people trying to be self-righteous.

Example:
State Sen. Dan Patrick (R): "I spoke to my colleagues and said, when Jesus criticized the Pharisees, he criticized them because their laws and their rules were more important than actually taking care of people. And in my view, stopping a debate to save thousands of lives, well, saving the thousands of lives is more important than our tradition of, well, you should never stop someone."

State Rep. Jodie Laubenberg (R): "In the emergency room they have what's called rape kits, where a woman can get cleaned out. The woman had five months to make that decision, at this point we are looking at a baby that is very far along in its development."

State Rep. Wayne Christian (R): "Of course it's a war on birth control, abortion, everything—that's what family planning is supposed to be about."

So tell me, how is it bad that I want informed people to help shape the legislation?
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Shoju » Fri Jul 05, 2013 12:41 pm

Wait... Did I get a bad link?

That link showed that 53% said do not over turn, 29% said overturn, and 18% were unsure.

Wouldn't that mean that the majority SUPPORTS Roe V Wade? Or did I lose my mind?
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Flex » Fri Jul 05, 2013 12:42 pm

We live in a society where people born on third base constantly try to steal second, yet we expect people born with two strikes against them to hit a homerun on the first pitch.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Klaudandus » Fri Jul 05, 2013 12:45 pm

Shoju wrote:Wait... Did I get a bad link?

That link showed that 53% said do not over turn, 29% said overturn, and 18% were unsure.

Wouldn't that mean that the majority SUPPORTS Roe V Wade? Or did I lose my mind?


Fridmarr's point is that 64% of those polled want to stop 2nd trimester abortions, and kysen was asking where those numbers came from.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Klaudandus » Fri Jul 05, 2013 12:45 pm

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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby KysenMurrin » Fri Jul 05, 2013 1:12 pm

Klaudandus wrote:Fridmarr's point is that 64% of those polled want to stop 2nd trimester abortions, and kysen was asking where those numbers came from.

Yeah, that's interesting. 2nd trimester can be a lot earlier than 20 weeks, too. Wonder how it varies depending on the specific question asked. (Not disputing the result - the question on that poll was very clear and direct. But people do change their answers for the oddest reasons when you vary phrasing around - or even if you ask different questions before that one.)
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Shoju » Fri Jul 05, 2013 1:12 pm

Klaudandus wrote:
Shoju wrote:Wait... Did I get a bad link?

That link showed that 53% said do not over turn, 29% said overturn, and 18% were unsure.

Wouldn't that mean that the majority SUPPORTS Roe V Wade? Or did I lose my mind?


Fridmarr's point is that 64% of those polled want to stop 2nd trimester abortions, and kysen was asking where those numbers came from.


Well, If a 2nd trimester is medically viable outside of the womb, I'm in favor. But, like with all laws, I feel that there needs to be a line in the sand where the law starts / stops, and I think that in this case, it's a reasonably easy line to create, by speaking in terms of real, scientific data.


Edit:
I should also add that I'm 100% in favor of pro-choice when there are circumstances regarding the life of the mother. Sacrificing one for the other should be a decision made exclusively by those involved, and there is no amount of line in the sand that will make me change my mind on that.

I'm probably biased, and i will admit it.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby aureon » Fri Jul 05, 2013 2:40 pm

Thing is, the amount of weeks is NOT the point of the law at all.
0.3% of pregnancies are post 20 weeks, and they're nearly all for medical reasons, which would still be permitted (Since they're done when the mother's health is in grave danger)
The debate on the number of weeks is completely useless, irrelevant, and solved already.

The point is another: Texas Governor (And his party) used the excuse of that to draw up un-neededly strict restriction to abortion clinics, in order to get what they wanted (less abortions) without actually having to support their goal.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Fridmarr » Fri Jul 05, 2013 3:55 pm

To be clear, I'm not advocating for this or any other legislation, just against the notion that only women should have say over this legislation, which is how we got on this tangent.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Amirya » Fri Jul 05, 2013 4:41 pm

Question for you, Fridmarr (and really, anyone else who wants to jump in, I guess).

So way back when we were first trying to figure out what the hell was going on with me, I was explaining to my new doctor that I had menstrual cycles once every 9-12 months. Then they would last on superheavyragingriver flow for 2 weeks, which - every single time - kept me from work for 2-3 days minimum due to the cramping. He wanted to take a sample from my uterus, but presented me with a choice - do a pregnancy test first, to make sure I'm not pregnant, or skip the pregnancy test and accept that if I was pregnant, the procedure would terminate said pregnancy.

I wasn't pregnant by any means except immaculate conception, but in the event I might have been, should I have put the appointment on hold to discuss it with the sire first?

(Not sarcasm, btw, just truly curious how far you think this should go.)

Edit: Because I suck at forming sentences sometimes.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Fridmarr » Fri Jul 05, 2013 5:17 pm

Well that's really on you. If I was in a relationship with a girl and got her pregnant, I would certainly prefer to have that communicated with me, regardless of the ultimate decision. That said, I don't think you have any sort of legal obligation to tell him.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Amirya » Fri Jul 05, 2013 5:34 pm

Even if it was a maybe, maybe not, too soon to know sort of thing?

Not from a legal standpoint, but from a personal one. I'm mostly just very curious.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Fridmarr » Fri Jul 05, 2013 7:31 pm

That's really difficult. The symptom of the problem is also a symptom of being pregnant, so I suspect that there's always that little bit of doubt about what it could be. I think then you could avoid one sticky situation by getting the test, since pregnancy tests aren't invasive or expensive, there's really nothing to lose.

On the other hand if you just opted to get the procedure because you felt it was highly unlikely that you were pregnant, then it's kind of a toss up in my mind, and a lot of variables come in to play about the relationship itself that could push it either way. That said, my general philosophy is that when in doubt, having all the information is better than not, so I would like to be told, but can easily see the other side of it.

Sorry that that is really mostly a copout answer.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Amirya » Fri Jul 05, 2013 8:02 pm

Not really, since there are no hard and fast rules (obviously). It's as fair an answer as you can give, and an honest one, so I can respect that.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby fuzzygeek » Sat Jul 06, 2013 12:08 am

Klaudandus wrote:The reason why i deride the as old white rich dudes is because i dont see them put any effort in getting educated,


Then deride them (rightfully) for their ignorance, instead of painting with a broad brush their entire class. Their arguments suck on merits, not because they're old, white, rich dudes. This is hurr durr class warfare, and the core reason politics nowadays suck and the government is useless.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Nooska » Sat Jul 06, 2013 2:58 am

Just thought I'd want to drop down this here, so we all can stay in the top 3-4 blocks if at all possible (also when talking about someone not on the boards or in general)

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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Koatanga » Sat Jul 06, 2013 6:18 pm

fuzzygeek wrote:
Klaudandus wrote:The reason why i deride the as old white rich dudes is because i dont see them put any effort in getting educated,


Then deride them (rightfully) for their ignorance, instead of painting with a broad brush their entire class. Their arguments suck on merits, not because they're old, white, rich dudes. This is hurr durr class warfare, and the core reason politics nowadays suck and the government is useless.

How exactly does one educate a man with regard to how it feels to be raped, and to have the product of that rape growing inside you, with the capacity to derail, if not destroy, your intended career path, financial situation, education, standing in the community, etc.? And what is it like to further realise that the product of that rape, in addition to being forced upon you and serving as a constant reminder of the event, is also a part of you and could potentially grow up to have your eyes and call you "mommy" and want to bake cookies with you on a cold winter's afternoon?

I can't imagine a more difficult decision for a woman to make, and as a man I am glad I'll never have to make it. But by the same token, I don't for a moment pretend is it up to me or people with my level of understanding, e.g. male, to make that decision for women.

Yes, that's just one scenario, but how the hell could old, rich, white dudes ever be adequately educated to make that decision for all women now and forever? They simply can't. They vote based on the knowledge they have, and usually that goes back to their faith, which has no place in government. This is not a theocracy.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Fridmarr » Sat Jul 06, 2013 8:45 pm

Not even 24hours Nooska...

:(
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Klaudandus » Sat Jul 06, 2013 8:51 pm

I dunno, if you get past the old white rich dude, Koatanga has a point.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Klaudandus » Sat Jul 06, 2013 8:54 pm

And now for something completely different...

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142 ... bs=article

Egyptians would be lucky if their new ruling generals turn out to be in the mold of Chile's Augusto Pinochet, who took power amid chaos but hired free-market reformers and midwifed a transition to democracy

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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Fridmarr » Sat Jul 06, 2013 9:10 pm

Klaudandus wrote:I dunno, if you get past the old white rich dude, Koatanga has a point.


A fully specious one. It's true that we aren't a theocracy, and certainly some politicians follow that path. However, science isn't exactly pro-choice either.

No I can't imagine what it's like to be pregnant or have that pregnancy caused by a rape. Is that strictly necessary though? Because if it is, then the only people qualified are specifically raped women who were impregnated by the rapist. Because of my race, financial position, or gender I'm not able empathize with women in that situation? I'm not able to consider what if that situation happened to my wife or daughters, and what sort of options I'd like them to have? Aren't there plenty of rich, white, pro-choice men? How does that happen? What about pro-life women...we've talked about the numbers on that already...

And then the other side of the issue, and that's the termination of a life and what that means. At what point is that a person? Does that even matter? I am a person and a former fetus, but because of my race, wealth, and gender I can't look at the science objectively?

Again, it's really easily to argue the points here, and frankly arguing the race, wealth, and gender is not only disgusting, it's not even all that accurate.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Klaudandus » Sat Jul 06, 2013 9:26 pm

I agree the point is not perfect. But many of the lawmakers do drape themselves on the flag of banishing abortion, or at least make it very hard to get one, solely based because Jeezus told them so.

The thing is, it is the lawmakers' duty to get properly and constantly informed, but many refuse to do so.

How can I expect them to consider what is best for women when they think they know best with what little knowledge they have.

These are the kind of people that consider rape not being a valid reason for abortion.

Since I brought up Chile, let me use it as an example of a nation who is very conservative and actually has complete ban of abortion in effect
http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/the ... story.html
Doctors say the girl’s life and that of the fetus are at high risk. But in Chile, ending the pregnancy is not an option.

And this is how some lawmakers in the US think.
http://www.azcentral.com/news/politics/ ... ck_check=1
“The incidence of rape resulting in pregnancy (is) very low,”

http://blog.seattlepi.com/seattlepoliti ... -for-rape/
Texas is the latest state where Republican legislators are seeking severe limits on abortions, with no exception in cases of rape and incest. The legislation’s chief sponsor argued that hospitals already have means for rape victims to get “cleaned out.”
State Rep. Jodie Laubenberg (R): "In the emergency room they have what's called rape kits, where a woman can get cleaned out. The woman had five months to make that decision, at this point we are looking at a baby that is very far along in its development."
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Fridmarr » Sat Jul 06, 2013 10:15 pm

Klaudandus wrote:I agree the point is not perfect.

Technically it's non existent. Don't get me wrong, it was articulate and emotionally powerful. It just doesn't stand up to much logical scrutiny, unless you believe that the only people capable of making abortion law are women who were impregnated by rape.

As for the rest of your post...Don't look now but you just spent some time attacking ideas and positions without mention of race, wealth, and gender.* The "them" you refer too, are people who have similar thinking and ideas, not people who have the same gender and/or race.

*I didn't follow the links, so hopefully they don't make me a liar.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Nooska » Sun Jul 07, 2013 2:33 am

The biggest issue in this specific debate is

You have a democracy set up (flawed as any democratic system is) that chooses who gets to have influence.

Being a politician myself, I have to say; even being vehemently pro-choice (but at the same time cannot imagine ever "taking" the path in regards to my own relationship), if I get elected on the grounds of my stated (and unstated) opinions my duty to my party, electorate and myself is to represent those opinions - not sit down and defer the difficult stuff to others because something couldn't happen to me, or because I'm not the one being hurt by the law.

Throwing this on anothe rloop, that means that lgbt rights and issues swould not be acknowledged in the US at all - at least, last I checked there was a clear minority of lgbt politicians in the US?

I really like the danish 'foundation law' (constitution) - it has a section dealing with the freedom of memebers of parliament;
"Folketingsmedlemmerne er ene bundet ved deres overbevisning og ikke ved nogen forskrift af deres vælgere"
(Google)translated to
"Parliament members are bound solely by their own consciences and not by any regulation of their constituents"
Or translated by my own hand to
"Members of Parliament are bound only by their own conviction, and not by any dictates of their constituents"

I think this sums up very nicely what it means to be a politician - being an honest politician means telling the voting public what your convictions are so they can chose the one they agree with the most on what they deem the most important areas.

Please don't try to tell me that I have no business voting for or against legislation (or regulation as the case may be at levels lower than parliament) because of my gender - thats one of the number one reasons given to keep women out of politics for a long time - "what politics was about didn't concern women, as they were tending home".

I'm not a "rich old white dude" (at least, I'm neither rich nor old), but as a politician, my job is to take part in the decisions, not stand aside and let some subset (and thereby a clear minority) decide on important issues.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Klaudandus » Sun Jul 07, 2013 6:11 am

Fridmarr wrote:
Klaudandus wrote:I agree the point is not perfect.

Technically it's non existent. Don't get me wrong, it was articulate and emotionally powerful. It just doesn't stand up to much logical scrutiny, unless you believe that the only people capable of making abortion law are women who were impregnated by rape.

As for the rest of your post...Don't look now but you just spent some time attacking ideas and positions without mention of race, wealth, and gender.* The "them" you refer too, are people who have similar thinking and ideas, not people who have the same gender and/or race.

*I didn't follow the links, so hopefully they don't make me a liar.


I believe Koatanga's point is that the lawmakers did not even consider rape.

So here you are, the victim of such violence that you end up raped. Let's say you were so overwhelmed by the experience that you didnt take the morning after pill. Now, these lawmakers don't really care about circumstances, all they say is that you are now stuck with it and must carry to term something against your will. Maybe you will love the kid, maybe you abhor the idea of the kid being the product of the one who raped you. But these lawmakers don't care about that.

Many lawmakers have voiced their opinions about rape not being used as a reason for abortion, and are also against the morning after pill.
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