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Politics (formerly Election 2012)

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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Fridmarr » Sun Jun 02, 2013 8:04 pm

Koatanga wrote:I would prefer to keep suicides out of the equation, actually.

I just think it's a bit off to be all patriotic and go to war in Iraq and Afghanistan over, or using as an excuse anyway, the 5000 people killed in 9/11, but it's anti-American to even discuss gun control when nearly 5000 people die in the last 6 months. Isn't that a bit odd?

It's like it's fine to lose 5000 people as long as no buildings get destroyed. I'm generally not one for conspiracy nonsense, but this sure does seem like a case where anything that happens to the assets of the top 1% gets billions spent in retaliation (spent with the defense contractors owned by the top 1%, of course), but as long as the top 1% aren't inconvenienced by the rabble killing each other, it's all OK.

Because the numbers of deaths are similar, but the response is completely different.

I think it's a bit off to not be willing to discuss gun control regardless of your stance on the wars. It's an important issue that warrants discussion. Fortunately, it has received quite a lot of discussion from all sides.

The rest of that though is an appallingly stupid comparison, even by the standards of this thread. It's just more of the tin-foil hat stuff expanding the previously proffered "Eisenhowerian" economic model or whatever you want to call that nonsense.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Shoju » Sun Jun 02, 2013 8:43 pm

I disagree that it's stupid.

Gun Violence in some of America's largest cities is a large problem. But it doesn't get the press that other things get, including the wars, etc...
Gun Control may be getting a lot of media play, but it's not getting traction in the one place that it should. D.C.
I've gone from a very staunch "Gun Control isn't going to make a difference" stance to a "We really need to start doing whatever we can to minimize the deaths" stance. Sure, I still have some caveats about how I'd go about it, but to me, I think it's fair to wonder why we are so mum about things like gang violence, and the like, but then when a lone gunman blows people away, or goes on a tear jerking, heart wrenching massacre, or our soldiers die, we are all about it.

Why is it that our home grown gun violence doesn't get the media play? Do I think it's a 1%'er conspiracy? Not really, but I don't think that it's stupid to postulate ideas about it.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Fridmarr » Sun Jun 02, 2013 8:51 pm

Shoju wrote:I disagree that it's stupid.

Gun Violence in some of America's largest cities is a large problem. But it doesn't get the press that other things get, including the wars, etc...
Gun Control may be getting a lot of media play, but it's not getting traction in the one place that it should. D.C.
I've gone from a very staunch "Gun Control isn't going to make a difference" stance to a "We really need to start doing whatever we can to minimize the deaths" stance. Sure, I still have some caveats about how I'd go about it, but to me, I think it's fair to wonder why we are so mum about things like gang violence, and the like, but then when a lone gunman blows people away, or goes on a tear jerking, heart wrenching massacre, or our soldiers die, we are all about it.

Why is it that our home grown gun violence doesn't get the media play? Do I think it's a 1%'er conspiracy? Not really, but I don't think that it's stupid to postulate ideas about it.

Obviously, I didn't say it was stupid to postulate ideas about it. The comparison of the reaction to 9/11 vs gun violence and then attempting to correlate that to the top 1%, is stupid though.

Gun control has been debated quite a bit in DC and in state legislatures across the country. Just because people haven't changed their stance, or no new major legislation has come of it, doesn't mean it hasn't been discussed.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Klaudandus » Sun Jun 02, 2013 9:06 pm

If it hasn't changed is in part because of the Gun Lobby... which dumps a lot of money into the congressmen, not to mention it makes a lot of money off of sales of the guns and the ammo that goes with it.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Koatanga » Sun Jun 02, 2013 9:12 pm

I think if you put the billions into working out measures for gun control that you put in to the war effort, you could have the problem sussed in short order.

As I see it, the top 1% don't benefit from spending billions on gun control measures, so they aren't interested in doing it. Scaring the crap out of the public to the extent that they can keep building tanks the army doesn't even want is much more profitable.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Klaudandus » Mon Jun 03, 2013 10:44 am

http://www.scotusblog.com/2013/06/live- ... rg-law-16/

Sweet jeebus! I agree with scalia's dissent!
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Koatanga » Mon Jun 03, 2013 1:57 pm

Klaudandus wrote:http://www.scotusblog.com/2013/06/live-blog-of-orders-and-opinions-sponsored-by-bloomberg-law-16/

Sweet jeebus! I agree with scalia's dissent!

Regarding what?
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Klaudandus » Mon Jun 03, 2013 2:05 pm

Koatanga wrote:
Klaudandus wrote:http://www.scotusblog.com/2013/06/live-blog-of-orders-and-opinions-sponsored-by-bloomberg-law-16/

Sweet jeebus! I agree with scalia's dissent!

Regarding what?

Ah shit.

Scotus said its ok for police to get dna swabs of people at the tim of an arrest, to run it for future references and crossmatch it against cold cases and such.

Scalia was one of the dissenting judges.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Koatanga » Mon Jun 03, 2013 2:29 pm

Klaudandus wrote:
Koatanga wrote:
Klaudandus wrote:http://www.scotusblog.com/2013/06/live-blog-of-orders-and-opinions-sponsored-by-bloomberg-law-16/

Sweet jeebus! I agree with scalia's dissent!

Regarding what?

Ah shit.

Scotus said its ok for police to get dna swabs of people at the tim of an arrest, to run it for future references and crossmatch it against cold cases and such.

Scalia was one of the dissenting judges.

Ahh.

I'm ok with that - take swabs after conviction, not arrest. Presumptive innocence has to be considered. Once convicted, your ass, and your DNA, belongs to the state.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Klaudandus » Mon Jun 03, 2013 2:35 pm

Im ok after conviction, but here they are talking during arrest.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby KysenMurrin » Mon Jun 03, 2013 2:39 pm

Bear in mind also that you don't even have to be charged with anything to be arrested.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby fuzzygeek » Mon Jun 03, 2013 2:40 pm

What's the difference between keeping a photograph of someone on file, and someone's DNA on file? What about fingerprints?
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Koatanga » Mon Jun 03, 2013 2:48 pm

I meant I was OK with Scalia's dissent, not the original practice. Presumption of innocence must be maintained.

Particularly of late I have noticed US laws pertaining to "public safety" have been treading rather heavily on Constitutional rights. I think it is important that the Supreme Court take a hard line on this, to preserve the integrity of the US Justice system and to send a message to the Legislative branch that it is overstepping its bounds.

Even if 99.9% of arrests result in convictions, the law is that a person is innocent until proven guilty.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Klaudandus » Mon Jun 03, 2013 3:48 pm

fuzzygeek wrote:What's the difference between keeping a photograph of someone on file, and someone's DNA on file? What about fingerprints?


Fingerprints and photographs are normally used from that point on forward. In this case, they want the DNA samples to see if anything matches in cold cases.

The problem is discovery, which is why Scalia argued based on the 4th.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Klaudandus » Tue Jun 04, 2013 6:23 am

More on the IRS thing
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/ju ... w-evidence

The IRS office in Cincinnati which decides whether to exempt such groups from income tax singled out 72 of them for scrutiny because they were openly affiliated with the Tea Party movement, together with 24 others whose names included associated labels such as "patriot".

To qualify for tax exempt status such groups have to show they are not directly backing a political candidate but they are allowed to campaign on general "civic issues".

However a further 226 other political groups were also placed in the same review whose affiliations were not immediately apparent from their name alone, which is often the case among liberal campaign groups. It remains unknown how many of these were in fact Democrat-leaning groups, partly because individual names cannot be publicly released under IRS confidentiality laws.
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