Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Invisusira's playground

Moderators: Aergis, Invisusira

Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Fridmarr » Mon May 27, 2013 6:04 pm

Don't forget survivor's benefits though, which erodes that offset.
Fridmarr
Global Mod
 
Posts: 6465
Joined: Sun Apr 08, 2007 1:03 am

Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Nooska » Tue May 28, 2013 4:56 am

"My" math (which, I'll freely admit, isn't done by me, but skimmed off some studies a good while ago) does take that into consideration. The nota bene in my math is "under socialised healthcare" ie healthcare where the patient has 0 out of pocket expense and it is all payed for through taxation.

An addendum to that, whne looking at the scandinavian healthcare systems (which have been socialised for a good long while, so will likely be representative) - the wealthiest part of the population get a relatively higher part of the treatments than what would be "fair" when looking at the tax distribution. This ha snothing to do with ealth as such, but the fact the the more money you make, the more likely you are to be a ressourceful person, that demands more from the healthcare system, as opposed to less wealthy people, generally being less resourceful (and more authoritarian) so they get less in the healthcare system, and get sent home more easily.

That is besides the point though - the nonsmoking populace get older, but they are healthier as they get older than the smoking populace is even though they die younger (all generally speaking). The societal benefits of not smoking outweight the societal benefits of not having to care for someone into their old age.
(and keep in mind, these studies when being done under socialised healthcare include the pensions of the same countries, so in scadinavia a age pensioner currently recieves 1500 USD gross per month (before things like rent adjustment) as a married or cohabitating pensioner, and 2050 USD gross per month as a single pensioner.
A Single pensioner in a rented flat like the one I live in will in addition be given 550 USD in rent assistance (tax free), so a single pensioner will have a monthly net income of 2050 USD (in the case of my flat, the rent assistance would actually equal the taxes) - a yearly net income of 24,600 USD, all from the government for singles (slightly lower for married or cohabitating couples of course, but they would recieve a higher rent assistance).

^the above is to illustrate that the expenses of growing old is, indeed, included in the studies I'm leaning on.
Main Characters:
Nooska, Blood Elf BM/SV Hunter on Argent Dawn (EU)
Morosin, Bloody freezing orc death knight on Argent Dawn (EU)
Niisca, Shady forsaken "priest" on Argent Dawn (EU)

Keeper Emeritus of the BM hunters guide on Elitist Jerks and the wowhead version untill patch 5.3.
User avatar
Nooska
 
Posts: 1553
Joined: Sun Nov 27, 2011 10:55 am

Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Klaudandus » Tue May 28, 2013 5:43 am

The Element of Forum Hyperbole
Image
---
Flüttershy - Draenei Protection Paladin, Aerie Peak
Klaudandus - BE Protection Paladin, Feathermoon (Semi-retired)
User avatar
Klaudandus
 
Posts: 9379
Joined: Thu Apr 02, 2009 7:08 am
Location: Texas' Armpit

Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby aureon » Tue May 28, 2013 9:36 am

Klaudandus wrote:
Amirya wrote:
Klaudandus wrote:Ohio school district's new curriculum mandates that for controversial issues, "all sides" of the issue are to be presented
http://www.boarddocs.com/oh/scsdoh/Boar ... 240%20.pdf

For purposes of this policy, controversial issues include: religion when not used in a historical or factual context, sex education, legalization of drugs, evolution/creation, pro-life/abortion, contraception/abstinence, conservatism/liberalism, politics, gun rights, global warming and climate change, UN Agenda 21 and sustainable development, and any other topic on which opposing points of view have been promulgated by responsible opinion and/or likely to arouse both support and opposition in the community.

Image

Was tempted to bold evolution, but I find it more WTF worthy that they actually consider teaching Glenn Beck conspiracy theories.


Global warming, climate change, and sustainable development is controversial? Wtf did I miss?


Its obviously unamerican!


American_Politics.html
Creationism.html
User avatar
aureon
 
Posts: 411
Joined: Sat Jan 05, 2008 4:41 pm

Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Klaudandus » Tue May 28, 2013 9:44 am

Well the unamerican part was me being facetious to a degree...

But there is people that do think that certain topics/policies are inherently unamerican.
The Element of Forum Hyperbole
Image
---
Flüttershy - Draenei Protection Paladin, Aerie Peak
Klaudandus - BE Protection Paladin, Feathermoon (Semi-retired)
User avatar
Klaudandus
 
Posts: 9379
Joined: Thu Apr 02, 2009 7:08 am
Location: Texas' Armpit

Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Jabari » Tue May 28, 2013 12:44 pm

Klaudandus wrote:And the reason why I don't talk about the parts I agree with republicans is because, according to my friends it makes me a racist and a hater of my own race (being part latino)...


Sounds like you need new friends, then. *shrug*

Out of curiosity, where do you get your news and info from?
Most people want the wealth produced by a society with limited government distributed to them more generously by bigger government.
Jabari
 
Posts: 692
Joined: Fri Feb 15, 2008 8:46 am

Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Jabari » Tue May 28, 2013 12:52 pm

Amirya wrote:Global warming, climate change, and sustainable development is controversial? Wtf did I miss?


Probably referencing "anthropogenic global climate change" (i.e., man-made global warming), which is somewhere between "controversial" and "a complete fabrication".

http://www.forbes.com/sites/peterferrara/2013/05/26/to-the-horror-of-global-warming-alarmists-global-cooling-is-here/
Most people want the wealth produced by a society with limited government distributed to them more generously by bigger government.
Jabari
 
Posts: 692
Joined: Fri Feb 15, 2008 8:46 am

Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby KysenMurrin » Tue May 28, 2013 1:15 pm

Reading that article, I see a lot of interesting stuff about the solar cycles and how it effects temperature, and then a bunch of unsupported assertions of how man-made global warning is nonsense. Piggybacking "man-made global warming doesn't exist" on the back of unrelated scientific information that neither proves nor disproves it doesn't really make a valid argument. Just because temperatures are affected by one thing doesn't mean they're not affected by others.

Edit: An analogy occured to me this morning to deomnstrate my problem with this article. The argument against global warming in this article is like me saying "I get woken up every morning by cars in the street outside, therefore my alarm clock doesn't work."
Last edited by KysenMurrin on Wed May 29, 2013 12:41 am, edited 1 time in total.
KysenMurrin
 
Posts: 4838
Joined: Thu Jun 26, 2008 6:37 am
Location: UK

Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Paxen » Tue May 28, 2013 3:51 pm

Yeah, that article is pretty poor. It's an opinion piece by a pundit about a field where he disagrees with most of those who actually study it scientifically for a living. Excuse me if I completely ignore him.

"Global warming" isn't very descriptive, I'll give you that. Weather is a very chaotic system where it's hard to predict specifics (but easier to predict global trends). More and more climate sceptics are coming around to the idea that humans have played a part in the climate change.
Paxen
 
Posts: 550
Joined: Mon Aug 17, 2009 3:38 am

Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby aureon » Tue May 28, 2013 8:47 pm

(Emphasis mine)
Forbes wrote:You will not get the truth about that from the Washington Post, the New York Times, or the rest of the self-regarded “establishment” media. They are devoted to the fun and games of play acting as if there is no legitimate scientific debate over whether mankind’s use of low cost, reliable energy from oil, coal and natural gas portends catastrophic global warming that threatens life on the planet as we know it.


http://iopscience.iop.org/1748-9326/8/2/024024/article

Well, everyone is entitled to one's own opinion, on Maintankadin, on Forbes, anywhere.
But not to one's own facts, ESPECIALLY on Forbes.
User avatar
aureon
 
Posts: 411
Joined: Sat Jan 05, 2008 4:41 pm

Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Klaudandus » Wed May 29, 2013 11:32 am

The Element of Forum Hyperbole
Image
---
Flüttershy - Draenei Protection Paladin, Aerie Peak
Klaudandus - BE Protection Paladin, Feathermoon (Semi-retired)
User avatar
Klaudandus
 
Posts: 9379
Joined: Thu Apr 02, 2009 7:08 am
Location: Texas' Armpit

Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Passionario » Thu May 30, 2013 12:13 am

Klaudandus wrote:But there is people that do think that certain topics/policies are inherently unamerican.

The only thing fitting that description that comes to mind is this politician's proposal to sink the entire North American continent with tectonic superweapons.
If you are not the flame, you're the fuel.
User avatar
Passionario
 
Posts: 2255
Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2007 2:52 am

Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Klaudandus » Thu May 30, 2013 9:21 am

The Element of Forum Hyperbole
Image
---
Flüttershy - Draenei Protection Paladin, Aerie Peak
Klaudandus - BE Protection Paladin, Feathermoon (Semi-retired)
User avatar
Klaudandus
 
Posts: 9379
Joined: Thu Apr 02, 2009 7:08 am
Location: Texas' Armpit

Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Shoju » Thu May 30, 2013 1:21 pm

Hitting on the Ohio Education system, I'm growing increasingly furious with my son's HONOR'S History teacher, and her incredibly republican, batshit crazy, not presented as opinion, bashing of the president, and presentation of conspiracy theories as fact in modern history. I have spoken to the school administrators about it, presented copies of the handouts, book lists, and other such items as proof, and was told that I may be asked to speak in front of the school board regarding my dissatisfaction about her teaching.

Seriously. They spent a month of a "modern american history class" being lectured about how Obama is the evil in the world, and why he needs to be impeached, and using youtube videos as in class videos to support it.

I've never wanted to vomit so much in my life.
User avatar
Shoju
 
Posts: 5068
Joined: Mon May 19, 2008 7:15 am

Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Klaudandus » Thu May 30, 2013 3:36 pm

sweet jeebus!
The Element of Forum Hyperbole
Image
---
Flüttershy - Draenei Protection Paladin, Aerie Peak
Klaudandus - BE Protection Paladin, Feathermoon (Semi-retired)
User avatar
Klaudandus
 
Posts: 9379
Joined: Thu Apr 02, 2009 7:08 am
Location: Texas' Armpit

Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Koatanga » Thu May 30, 2013 7:49 pm

US gun deaths since Sandy Hook (just under 6 months) have now exceeded the total of American casualties in the entire Iraq war.
Un-Retired. Ish. Koatanga, Shapely, Sultry of Greenstone - Dath'Remar
Koatanga
 
Posts: 1671
Joined: Mon Nov 17, 2008 12:46 pm

Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Fridmarr » Thu May 30, 2013 8:21 pm

And it's likely (as is normally the case) that the majority of them are suicides.
Fridmarr
Global Mod
 
Posts: 6465
Joined: Sun Apr 08, 2007 1:03 am

Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Nooska » Fri May 31, 2013 3:48 am

Which is really the saddest part of it.

We can argue all we like about whether gun control would have any effect on homicides by fireamr, or whether the statistic would just swicth.
But I have yet to see anyone actually argue that gun control would just shift the suicides by firearm into another category. A gun is horribly efficient at killing, and shooting yourself with the intent to kill more or less rules out any chance at ressucitation.

That, of course, also opens the debate on the right to decide the end of ones own life (or the lack of such a right) which is probably why it isn't mentioned (at least it isn't in anything that is carried across the pond). If that claimed right is a reason to oppose gun controle, then I would just add that I would prefer it not be selfadministered, and in the hands of trained physicians to make it as painless and safe as possible. (Note the whole sentence and context here, IF-THEN)
Main Characters:
Nooska, Blood Elf BM/SV Hunter on Argent Dawn (EU)
Morosin, Bloody freezing orc death knight on Argent Dawn (EU)
Niisca, Shady forsaken "priest" on Argent Dawn (EU)

Keeper Emeritus of the BM hunters guide on Elitist Jerks and the wowhead version untill patch 5.3.
User avatar
Nooska
 
Posts: 1553
Joined: Sun Nov 27, 2011 10:55 am

Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Sagara » Fri May 31, 2013 4:25 am

I'm gonna take that suicide line and run a bit with it - don't get surprised if I contradict myself constatly, it's basically ramblings about the validity of considerind suicides in gun-realted death numbers.

So basically, suicides shouldn't be counted in gun-related deaths. That makes sense as long as you can uphold that the suicide would have happened without guns anyway, moving the onus of the cause from the weapon to the user. The only trouble with that theory is that it implies that one suicide equals another, which isn't quite true (but may actually be true enough).

If memory serves, in gun-restricted countries, the chief means of suicide is medication overdose for women and (if memory serves) hanging for men. Thing is, both of these methods have a few things working againt them, off the top of my head: preparation time (and thus, time to think things through), lethality (much lower), and perceied pain (for men, at least)

Thinking it trough, it does make sense to say that "some suicides can't be prevented by removing guns, and shouldn't be counted as gun-related killings", but it ALSO does make sense to say that "some suicides could have been prevented by removing guns, and thus they should be counted."

*Goes off rambling in his beard*
When that day comes, seek all the light and wonder of this world, and fight.

Worldie wrote:I used to like it [mean] back on Sylvanas.

Queldan - EU Stormrage (H) - Good night, sweet prince.
User avatar
Sagara
 
Posts: 3272
Joined: Mon Jan 12, 2009 1:04 am
Location: Belgium

Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Shoju » Fri May 31, 2013 4:54 am

Put me in the camp of lumping suicide numbers into gun death statistics is a ploy to inflate numbers for media use. I don't care if the suicide could have been prevented with a gun or not. And I'm a proponent of gun law reform.

My problem with it, is that it leads to statements like Koatanga's, that includes those statistics, and doesn't account for them. It's just tossed out there, as a shocking statement.

I consider it a very Fox News type of thing, and one that makes me gag a little when I see it happen.
User avatar
Shoju
 
Posts: 5068
Joined: Mon May 19, 2008 7:15 am

Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Sagara » Fri May 31, 2013 6:16 am

Or it could be because audiences are morons and will follow shock statements more than a long, thought-out, complex argument that defends both sides and lets the audience decide for itself (a.k.a. a freaking basic essay).
When that day comes, seek all the light and wonder of this world, and fight.

Worldie wrote:I used to like it [mean] back on Sylvanas.

Queldan - EU Stormrage (H) - Good night, sweet prince.
User avatar
Sagara
 
Posts: 3272
Joined: Mon Jan 12, 2009 1:04 am
Location: Belgium

Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Koatanga » Fri May 31, 2013 12:31 pm

Un-Retired. Ish. Koatanga, Shapely, Sultry of Greenstone - Dath'Remar
Koatanga
 
Posts: 1671
Joined: Mon Nov 17, 2008 12:46 pm

Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Koatanga » Fri May 31, 2013 1:06 pm

Fridmarr wrote:And it's likely (as is normally the case) that the majority of them are suicides.

There is an interactive graphic at http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_ ... oting.html that counts the deaths since Sandy hook.

Out of curiosity I started to check how many were suicides. I started with May 30, 2013 (the most recent date), on which there were 11 gun deaths. Each has a link to an article about the death.

The results:
8 murders
2 non-working or login-protected links
1 possible duplicate
0 suicides

So I continued to the next day:
9 murders
8 shot by police
1 accidental death (2 year old shot himself while reaching for gum)
1 broken link
1 suicide - man shot himself after gunfight with police

I find it odd that for a site including suicides as gun deaths, in which the majority are supposedly suicides, that I would only find two cases of self-inflicted gunshot deaths, one being a toddler and one being a guy who killed himself after a gunfight with police, in 30 gun deaths. Neither are traditional suicides where a person eats a gun out of depression.

I did check one more day. I picked February 14th, Valentine's Day, figuring it would be a depressing day for lonely people seeing other people being happy with partners while they have nobody. I found one proper suicide, but it was a murder-suicide. Still no pure case of "man shoots himself out of depression" without cops or a murder or anything else involved.

I could go on compiling stats, but to be honest it's a bit depressing seeing photo after photo of crying family members. Feel free to research it yourself if you think you can find more suicides than I did.
Un-Retired. Ish. Koatanga, Shapely, Sultry of Greenstone - Dath'Remar
Koatanga
 
Posts: 1671
Joined: Mon Nov 17, 2008 12:46 pm

Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Klaudandus » Fri May 31, 2013 3:17 pm

I gotta say something, and I'm sure some here remember me talking about it, but I almost ate my gun, in a bout of depression, several years ago...

The only reason I didn't do it was because I took my time driving several miles out of town, which kind of cooled me off to the whole idea of suicide.

Had I not cared about where I was gonna be found dead, I'd have blown my head off with it in my bedroom since it was so easy.

I sold my gun after that, and I dont have the itch to buy a new one... but if I did, I'd prolly want a background check performed on me, because... maybe trying to buy a gun after a serious bout of depression seems like a really really bad idea, even if I'm much better these days.
The Element of Forum Hyperbole
Image
---
Flüttershy - Draenei Protection Paladin, Aerie Peak
Klaudandus - BE Protection Paladin, Feathermoon (Semi-retired)
User avatar
Klaudandus
 
Posts: 9379
Joined: Thu Apr 02, 2009 7:08 am
Location: Texas' Armpit

Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Fridmarr » Fri May 31, 2013 5:57 pm

Koatanga wrote:
Fridmarr wrote:And it's likely (as is normally the case) that the majority of them are suicides.

There is an interactive graphic at http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_ ... oting.html that counts the deaths since Sandy hook.

Out of curiosity I started to check how many were suicides. I started with May 30, 2013 (the most recent date), on which there were 11 gun deaths. Each has a link to an article about the death.

The results:
8 murders
2 non-working or login-protected links
1 possible duplicate
0 suicides

So I continued to the next day:
9 murders
8 shot by police
1 accidental death (2 year old shot himself while reaching for gum)
1 broken link
1 suicide - man shot himself after gunfight with police

I find it odd that for a site including suicides as gun deaths, in which the majority are supposedly suicides, that I would only find two cases of self-inflicted gunshot deaths, one being a toddler and one being a guy who killed himself after a gunfight with police, in 30 gun deaths. Neither are traditional suicides where a person eats a gun out of depression.

I did check one more day. I picked February 14th, Valentine's Day, figuring it would be a depressing day for lonely people seeing other people being happy with partners while they have nobody. I found one proper suicide, but it was a murder-suicide. Still no pure case of "man shoots himself out of depression" without cops or a murder or anything else involved.

I could go on compiling stats, but to be honest it's a bit depressing seeing photo after photo of crying family members. Feel free to research it yourself if you think you can find more suicides than I did.
I'm not saying that it is necessarily the case in the 6 month sample you chose. However, statistically when looking at annual data, suicides are generally a little more than half of all gun deaths. ( http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/nat ... 3648_x.htm )

I don't think that necessarily means that they should be discounted, as guns are a much (by a mile) more effective way to commit suicide than any other popular choice, when considering gun laws. However, it is in my opinion a misleading data point when it's generalized into the same category as murders.

PS: Probably why you aren't finding suicides...According to the site you linked:
Slate wrote:Of course, these figures are incomplete. Not all reports get caught by @GunDeaths’ news alerts or his followers. Suicides, which are estimated to make up as much as 60 percent of gun deaths, typically go unreported. Nevertheless, we at Slate want to assemble the data as best we can.

That also means that if Slate is where your original data came from, then it was already mostly excluding suicides.
Fridmarr
Global Mod
 
Posts: 6465
Joined: Sun Apr 08, 2007 1:03 am

PreviousNext

Return to Arkham Asylum

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest

Who is online

In total there is 1 user online :: 0 registered, 0 hidden and 1 guest (based on users active over the past 5 minutes)
Most users ever online was 380 on Tue Oct 14, 2008 6:28 pm

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest