Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Invisusira's playground

Moderators: Aergis, Invisusira

Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Klaudandus » Fri May 10, 2013 12:55 pm



I completely agree. The town I live has had its fair share of tragedies where elementary and middle school kids take guns to the school and end up killing another kid there. Of course it doesnt make national news because... well, my town is basically Texas' armpit. No one cares about it.

Edit: Weird, i can only find records of one fatal shooting, from 1995, but I do recall another school shooting not much later. Did find records of another shooting where a kid is shot and killed by another kid at their house.
The Element of Forum Hyperbole
Image
---
Flüttershy - Draenei Protection Paladin, Aerie Peak
Klaudandus - BE Protection Paladin, Feathermoon (Semi-retired)
User avatar
Klaudandus
 
Posts: 9340
Joined: Thu Apr 02, 2009 7:08 am
Location: Texas' Armpit

Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Jabari » Thu May 16, 2013 7:53 am

Hmm, no posts here in a week. Nothing at all interesting must be happening in politics. At all. Nothing.
Most people want the wealth produced by a society with limited government distributed to them more generously by bigger government.
Jabari
 
Posts: 674
Joined: Fri Feb 15, 2008 8:46 am

Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Klaudandus » Thu May 16, 2013 8:00 am

No one replies anymore.

Irs. Yeah, they should be held accountable, but if i recall, some of these organizations were targeted for looking tax exempt status as a political group rather than for being a social welfare group, which do get tax exempt status. Heck, the bronies got a charity started and are now tax exempt!

Ap. ugh, yeah, someone needs to go to jail for this.

Benghazi? Said it before... Fake outrage.
The Element of Forum Hyperbole
Image
---
Flüttershy - Draenei Protection Paladin, Aerie Peak
Klaudandus - BE Protection Paladin, Feathermoon (Semi-retired)
User avatar
Klaudandus
 
Posts: 9340
Joined: Thu Apr 02, 2009 7:08 am
Location: Texas' Armpit

Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Fridmarr » Thu May 16, 2013 12:33 pm

I'm totally lost on your logic about the fake outrage.  When you claimed that outrage was fake, you were citing previous incidents with death numbers.  I fail to see how that is relevant.
 
That said, I'm sure there's plenty of grandstanding going on and the positions would be different with a different administration, but that would be across both parties.  Just be fair and recognize that.
 
Both the IRS thing and the AP thing are quite similar.  They both seem to be a grevious abuse of power.  Fortunately, the consequences on the IRS side seem minor.  On the media side, that is much harder to determine.  There is no rationalizing what happened, and attempts to do so are a little scary.  More transparency and oversight should be mandated to make sure that doesn't happen again.
 
For the record, I replied about the overtime/comp time legislation, but got no response (that was accurate) to suggest that the bill was anything less than a solid idea, much less anything backing the claim of it being a big load croak, anti-worker, and typical GOP scum.
 
I think what Jabari is getting at, is that it's been quiet because the homers are taking a beating right now in the news cycle.  If there was more objectivity, this thread would be hopping.  Maybe all the one sided outrage in this thread is fake?
 
Fridmarr
Global Mod
 
Posts: 6460
Joined: Sun Apr 08, 2007 1:03 am

Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Shoju » Thu May 16, 2013 12:40 pm

The Benghazi stuff is just a partisan witch hunt. Nothing more, Nothing less.

I actually think the intro skit on SNL not too long ago was spot on.
User avatar
Shoju
 
Posts: 5064
Joined: Mon May 19, 2008 7:15 am

Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Flex » Thu May 16, 2013 1:04 pm

Fridmarr wrote:Fortunately, the consequences on the IRS side seem minor.


The big consequence is that any hope of reform to curb abuse by that type of non-profit is now dead in the water.
We live in a society where people born on third base constantly try to steal second, yet we expect people born with two strikes against them to hit a homerun on the first pitch.
User avatar
Flex
 
Posts: 4677
Joined: Tue Jul 10, 2007 7:29 am

Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby fuzzygeek » Thu May 16, 2013 6:28 pm

There's little point in trying to have a conversation with a True Believer. If it's not a dialogue there's nothing useful to be gleaned.
Image
User avatar
fuzzygeek
Maintankadonor
 
Posts: 3447
Joined: Wed Aug 01, 2007 1:58 pm

Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Klaudandus » Thu May 16, 2013 7:06 pm

Fridmarr wrote:For the record, I replied about the overtime/comp time legislation, but got no response (that was accurate) to suggest that the bill was anything less than a solid idea, much less anything backing the claim of it being a big load croak, anti-worker, and typical GOP scum.
 
I think what Jabari is getting at, is that it's been quiet because the homers are taking a beating right now in the news cycle.  If there was more objectivity, this thread would be hopping.  Maybe all the one sided outrage in this thread is fake?
 

I gotta say I overreacted to the comp time bill, probably because i've been on the receiving end of the abuse of that.

Yeah, I cannot actually go ahead and say I'll take the overtime, they force me into compensation time.

Anyways... I just cannot muster any outrage for Benghazi, specially when the GOP calls it worse than watergate, iran-contra and the pentagon papers COMBINED (yeah, they said that), and also because there were many more deaths under Bush at embassies/consulates but I dont remember the GOP being even remotely upset about it back then.

Like I said, don't get me wrong, any loss of human life is horrible, and its incredibly sad what happened at Benghazi, but the GOP is trying too hard to make it more than it really was -- specially when either Ryan or Paul said it was all about weakening Clinton for the '16 race.
The Element of Forum Hyperbole
Image
---
Flüttershy - Draenei Protection Paladin, Aerie Peak
Klaudandus - BE Protection Paladin, Feathermoon (Semi-retired)
User avatar
Klaudandus
 
Posts: 9340
Joined: Thu Apr 02, 2009 7:08 am
Location: Texas' Armpit

Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Fridmarr » Thu May 16, 2013 8:28 pm

As has been said, it's mostly a witch hunt. One that both parties eagerly engage in, but still a witch hunt. But that said, it's not the deaths that they are harping on, which is why the comments about death counts don't make much sense. It's the alleged coverup, and what exactly is being covered up that has their dander up.

As for overtime, are you sure you aren't exempt? Otherwise what they are doing is currently illegal and that wouldn't change (though that bill isn't going to see the light of day). If you are exempt, they don't have to give you jack shit, so getting comp time is a bonus and most definitely not abuse (the other possibility is that they are following a collective bargaining contract). I'm exempt as well so the bill wouldn't directly affect me.
Fridmarr
Global Mod
 
Posts: 6460
Joined: Sun Apr 08, 2007 1:03 am

Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Klaudandus » Thu May 16, 2013 8:52 pm

Fridmarr wrote:As has been said, it's mostly a witch hunt. One that both parties eagerly engage in, but still a witch hunt. But that said, it's not the deaths that they are harping on, which is why the comments about death counts don't make much sense. It's the alleged coverup, and what exactly is being covered up that has their dander up.

As for overtime, are you sure you aren't exempt? Otherwise what they are doing is currently illegal and that wouldn't change (though that bill isn't going to see the light of day). If you are exempt, they don't have to give you jack shit, so getting comp time is a bonus and most definitely not abuse (the other possibility is that they are following a collective bargaining contract). I'm exempt as well so the bill wouldn't directly affect me.


Yeah, I agree there was a degree of cover-up, but calling it Iran-Contra+Watergate+Pentagon Papers times 10, as several GOP'rs and FOX News have called it, is so disingenuous that is probably the reason why they're not getting any traction whatsoever when trying to convince others something went on.

I mean, Dick Cheney is on record saying its the worse thing ever he can recall in his life.... I swear my eyes rolled back so hard I went blind for close to an hour.

And, no, I don't think I fall under Exempt status, seeing as like once a year, I do get paid overtime, but 95% of the extra-duty performed is given to me as comp time instead... oh yeah, I have to take it within the same month, at least as per our CTO >=/
The Element of Forum Hyperbole
Image
---
Flüttershy - Draenei Protection Paladin, Aerie Peak
Klaudandus - BE Protection Paladin, Feathermoon (Semi-retired)
User avatar
Klaudandus
 
Posts: 9340
Joined: Thu Apr 02, 2009 7:08 am
Location: Texas' Armpit

Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Fridmarr » Thu May 16, 2013 9:11 pm

Oh right, you said you are a gov't employee. None of the standard rules probably apply. My point is, I don't think you can apply your situation to this proposed bill. You probably don't legally have a choice, but those covered by the bill would.
Fridmarr
Global Mod
 
Posts: 6460
Joined: Sun Apr 08, 2007 1:03 am

Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby KysenMurrin » Fri May 17, 2013 12:09 am

I thought the point of the bill was to copy the system used by government employees?
KysenMurrin
 
Posts: 4774
Joined: Thu Jun 26, 2008 6:37 am
Location: UK

Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Fridmarr » Fri May 17, 2013 6:00 am

Absolutely not. The point of the bill is to give employees a choice in their compensation.

The reference to gov't was just to point out that some of them do have that choice now, and like it, so why not extend that choice to the private sector. One of the big critiques of the bill is that that reference is misleading because the gov't system was instituted to save money, not to give gov't employees a choice. The system that gov't employees have has always been a bit different than the private sector though.

Government doesn't really generate revenue, so the extra work put in by an employee is almost a pure cost, because the productivity can't be turned into revenue. From a budgetary perspective that extra cost can cause problems. In any event, gov't agencies can use comp time in lieu of overtime, legally. This bill does not allow that for the private sector. For the private sector comp time would only be available if the employer chooses to participate and then the employee has the choice of comp time or pay. If the employer does not participate then it's always overtime pay.
Fridmarr
Global Mod
 
Posts: 6460
Joined: Sun Apr 08, 2007 1:03 am

Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Koatanga » Sat May 18, 2013 3:06 am

My thanks to the NZ health care system. You Americans ought to get something like it.

My wife complained of strong stomach pains on Thursday evening. Took her to the emergency room. She got pain meds, x-rays, CT scan, and was diagnosed with a perforated stomach. Ambulance to North Shore hospital where they could do the surgery. Laporosccopy at 3 am, fixed a 1cm ulcer. Will be in hospital 5-7 days.

We have no private insurance. Out of pocket expense over and above taxes we pay: $0.
Un-Retired. Ish. Koatanga, Shapely, Sultry of Greenstone - Dath'Remar
Koatanga
 
Posts: 1656
Joined: Mon Nov 17, 2008 12:46 pm

Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Klaudandus » Sat May 18, 2013 5:26 am

I was in the hospital for less than 6 hrs. CT Scans, X-Rays. Turns out I had a kidney stone and had already pee'd it out. Didn't even get a room, instead was stuck buck naked 'cept for the hospital gown and my gurney was the whole time under an AC vent in the middle of the hallway. The doctor only saw me once, just to discharge me and to tell me I had kidney stones (captain obvious), and that I could drink a herbal tea known for helping flush out kidney stones.

Total expense: 8 grand, and the insurance only covered 6.5K out of it.
The Element of Forum Hyperbole
Image
---
Flüttershy - Draenei Protection Paladin, Aerie Peak
Klaudandus - BE Protection Paladin, Feathermoon (Semi-retired)
User avatar
Klaudandus
 
Posts: 9340
Joined: Thu Apr 02, 2009 7:08 am
Location: Texas' Armpit

Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Shoju » Sun May 19, 2013 2:56 pm

Son started complaining of painful urination.

Took him to Urgent Care facility because it was "$75" copay, compared to $200 for ER.

Well, turns out it was a UTI.

Insurance covererd 0, because the Dr at said Urgent Care wasn't in network, even thouhg Care center was. $600 bill to get Iv's, and Antibiotics, because I didn't think to ask if the dr I saw at the facility that was in my network was also in my network.

FU people who like the current US health Care System.
User avatar
Shoju
 
Posts: 5064
Joined: Mon May 19, 2008 7:15 am

Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Koatanga » Sun May 19, 2013 3:32 pm

I had some surgery done int he US before I left for NZ 10 years ago. In between the time I signed up for the surgery and the actual operation, something changed with the anesthetist and he was no longer covered by my health plan. I got to pay the full $2,000 for his services even though nobody informed me of the change.

You do bring up a good point, Shoju. With a national system like NZ has, the facility doesn't matter. Wherever I could have taken my wife, all of the procedure would be covered by the national system. The last thing you need when a loved one is in pain is to figure out where to go that is covered by your particular insurance plan. You just want the closest place that you can get her to fastest, to get her taken care of, because what counts at that moment is getting medical assistance, not unraveling insurance company bullshit.
Un-Retired. Ish. Koatanga, Shapely, Sultry of Greenstone - Dath'Remar
Koatanga
 
Posts: 1656
Joined: Mon Nov 17, 2008 12:46 pm

Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Klaudandus » Sun May 19, 2013 5:05 pm

My mom prefers to cross the border and go to hospitals in Mexico... Her cholecystectomy was done for less than 4 grand! That included doctor, surgery, surgery room, anesthesiology, room and medicines.

That's how shitty she thinks of the US healthcare system.

When I had my 2nd kidney stone, i dragged my ass across the border to a mexican hospital... doctor, one night stay and medicine for 100 dollars, vis a vis the 1.5 grand I had to pay the first time I had to go through that.

The doctors and big pharma can go all EABODs and DIAF
The Element of Forum Hyperbole
Image
---
Flüttershy - Draenei Protection Paladin, Aerie Peak
Klaudandus - BE Protection Paladin, Feathermoon (Semi-retired)
User avatar
Klaudandus
 
Posts: 9340
Joined: Thu Apr 02, 2009 7:08 am
Location: Texas' Armpit

Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Nooska » Mon May 20, 2013 7:17 am

What isn't discussed here is the payment for the national systems over taxes - the highest taxbracket for US taxes (source) is 39.6%.
I'm in the lowest tax bracket in denmark, and I pay 39% after the tax free deduction (depending on whether you work or not you get one of 2 deductions before taxes are calculated) - I have 7,250USD worth of deduction before I pay tax (and thats the lower of the deductions as I'm not employed, but on a social pension due to a work accident 12 years ago).

Tax is more than healthcare of course, but its so neat that we have healthcare segregated into 5 "regions", whis is listed seperately on the tax bill; 6% in 2013 (down from 7% in 2012)
Main Characters:
Nooska, Blood Elf BM/SV Hunter on Argent Dawn (EU)
Morosin, Bloody freezing orc death knight on Argent Dawn (EU)
Niisca, Shady forsaken "priest" on Argent Dawn (EU)

Keeper Emeritus of the BM hunters guide on Elitist Jerks and the wowhead version untill patch 5.3.
User avatar
Nooska
 
Posts: 1509
Joined: Sun Nov 27, 2011 10:55 am

Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Shoju » Mon May 20, 2013 10:16 am

Koatanga wrote:I had some surgery done int he US before I left for NZ 10 years ago. In between the time I signed up for the surgery and the actual operation, something changed with the anesthetist and he was no longer covered by my health plan. I got to pay the full $2,000 for his services even though nobody informed me of the change.

You do bring up a good point, Shoju. With a national system like NZ has, the facility doesn't matter. Wherever I could have taken my wife, all of the procedure would be covered by the national system. The last thing you need when a loved one is in pain is to figure out where to go that is covered by your particular insurance plan. You just want the closest place that you can get her to fastest, to get her taken care of, because what counts at that moment is getting medical assistance, not unraveling insurance company bullshit.


Completely agree.

Before my wife got her current job, if she had a diabetes related issue that required a rescue squad, I couldn't call 911. Because if I called 911, they would dispatch a private ambulance service, as well as the Fire Dept, and the private company they would dispatch was a real pain in the ass to deal with, and we would end up having to eat the bill, and then go for reimbursement for the insurance.

If I just called a local ambulance company, and told them that my wife was a T1 Diabetic, and that her blood sugar was low and she was unresponsive, they would come, free of charge, and then they would bill the insurance for whatever they had to do while there (transport / glucagon / etc...) and never bothered us. Why should I have to jump through hoops when my wife is in a state of emergency?

The American Health Care and Insurance System blows. It's a joke.
User avatar
Shoju
 
Posts: 5064
Joined: Mon May 19, 2008 7:15 am

Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Koatanga » Mon May 20, 2013 12:59 pm

Nooska wrote:What isn't discussed here is the payment for the national systems over taxes - the highest taxbracket for US taxes (source) is 39.6%.
I'm in the lowest tax bracket in denmark, and I pay 39% after the tax free deduction (depending on whether you work or not you get one of 2 deductions before taxes are calculated) - I have 7,250USD worth of deduction before I pay tax (and thats the lower of the deductions as I'm not employed, but on a social pension due to a work accident 12 years ago).

Tax is more than healthcare of course, but its so neat that we have healthcare segregated into 5 "regions", whis is listed seperately on the tax bill; 6% in 2013 (down from 7% in 2012)

Do keep in mind that when comparing taxes you also need to factor in the cost of health insurance as a de-facto tax, whether that is paid by the employee or the employer. If they were able to trade the dollars they pay in medical insurance for tax dollars directly, they would probably be able to fund a more efficient system than what they currently have via the economy of scale.

Sure there are going to be some rather large transition issues that the US will have to get over. They need to revamp their judicial system so that malpractice claims don't drain money from the system. If you can eliminate malpractice suits you can eliminate malpractice insurance and make the entire system much cheaper than it is. Unfortunately, the insurance lobby is rather large in the US, and the issue of eliminating malpractice would already be controversial. It would be easy for the insurance lobby to sway popular and congressional opinion towards keeping the malpractice concept alive, just by frightening the sheep a bit. In reality, the doctor doesn't pay malpractice claims; the insurance company does. The doctor gets disciplined, but there's no reason he wouldn't be equally disciplined if malpractice didn't exist.

By the way the top tax tier in New Zealand is 39%.
Un-Retired. Ish. Koatanga, Shapely, Sultry of Greenstone - Dath'Remar
Koatanga
 
Posts: 1656
Joined: Mon Nov 17, 2008 12:46 pm

Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Cogglamp » Mon May 20, 2013 3:47 pm

I have to giggle at how Obama castigated and spat at off shore tax havens while running against Romney but then turns around and hands the Commerce nomination to Pritzker who rakes in some ~$50 million from off shore accounts.

I actually think Pritzker is a fine candidate for the position as she is a very astute business woman with serious business chops but the duplicity of the stance taking drives me bonkers.
Cogglamp
 
Posts: 726
Joined: Tue Apr 26, 2011 8:04 am

Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Cogglamp » Mon May 20, 2013 4:32 pm

Koatanga wrote:
Nooska wrote:What isn't discussed here is the payment for the national systems over taxes - the highest taxbracket for US taxes (source) is 39.6%.
I'm in the lowest tax bracket in denmark, and I pay 39% after the tax free deduction (depending on whether you work or not you get one of 2 deductions before taxes are calculated) - I have 7,250USD worth of deduction before I pay tax (and thats the lower of the deductions as I'm not employed, but on a social pension due to a work accident 12 years ago).

Tax is more than healthcare of course, but its so neat that we have healthcare segregated into 5 "regions", whis is listed seperately on the tax bill; 6% in 2013 (down from 7% in 2012)

Do keep in mind that when comparing taxes you also need to factor in the cost of health insurance as a de-facto tax, whether that is paid by the employee or the employer. If they were able to trade the dollars they pay in medical insurance for tax dollars directly, they would probably be able to fund a more efficient system than what they currently have via the economy of scale.

Sure there are going to be some rather large transition issues that the US will have to get over. They need to revamp their judicial system so that malpractice claims don't drain money from the system. If you can eliminate malpractice suits you can eliminate malpractice insurance and make the entire system much cheaper than it is. Unfortunately, the insurance lobby is rather large in the US, and the issue of eliminating malpractice would already be controversial. It would be easy for the insurance lobby to sway popular and congressional opinion towards keeping the malpractice concept alive, just by frightening the sheep a bit. In reality, the doctor doesn't pay malpractice claims; the insurance company does. The doctor gets disciplined, but there's no reason he wouldn't be equally disciplined if malpractice didn't exist.

By the way the top tax tier in New Zealand is 39%.


You're not really suggesting that a nation that has a population less than a quarter the size of New York City MSA and having less than half the number of total patients as say Kaiser Permanente be a good barometer of how to do things here in the US, are you?

Our system is pretty screwed up but you haven't faced any of the issues that plague nations facing rapidly increasing healthcare costs, namely ageing population, a shrinking workforce including your primary care physicians and current physicians seeking alternative employment means (ie out of the public partnership).
Cogglamp
 
Posts: 726
Joined: Tue Apr 26, 2011 8:04 am

Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Koatanga » Mon May 20, 2013 6:21 pm

Cogglamp wrote:You're not really suggesting that a nation that has a population less than a quarter the size of New York City MSA and having less than half the number of total patients as say Kaiser Permanente be a good barometer of how to do things here in the US, are you?

Our system is pretty screwed up but you haven't faced any of the issues that plague nations facing rapidly increasing healthcare costs, namely ageing population, a shrinking workforce including your primary care physicians and current physicians seeking alternative employment means (ie out of the public partnership).

The western world includes more than just New Zealand, and the vast majority of it has public healthcare. Like the metric system, it's something the rest of the western world has embraced that the US is holding out on.

I lived in the US for over 30 years. I did the HMO thing. I know what it's like over there. And yeah, my personal opinion is that the system here is better and the US should do things more like things are done here.

The fact that the US chooses to spend its money unwisely doesn't make our healthcare system any less valid. Take the billions you spend on foreign wars and corporate welfare and channel that into the domestic economy, stop sending US dollars overseas through foreign trade imbalances, and perhaps the US wouldn't be the sinking ship that it is.

China: Hey US here's some plastic crap for your landfills!
US: Shut up and take my money!

Seriously, don't go whining about economic pressures when they are largely self-inflicted and come as absolutely no surprise given the way the country has been run.
Un-Retired. Ish. Koatanga, Shapely, Sultry of Greenstone - Dath'Remar
Koatanga
 
Posts: 1656
Joined: Mon Nov 17, 2008 12:46 pm

Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Klaudandus » Mon May 20, 2013 6:28 pm

Koatanga wrote:
Cogglamp wrote:You're not really suggesting that a nation that has a population less than a quarter the size of New York City MSA and having less than half the number of total patients as say Kaiser Permanente be a good barometer of how to do things here in the US, are you?

Our system is pretty screwed up but you haven't faced any of the issues that plague nations facing rapidly increasing healthcare costs, namely ageing population, a shrinking workforce including your primary care physicians and current physicians seeking alternative employment means (ie out of the public partnership).

The western world includes more than just New Zealand, and the vast majority of it has public healthcare. Like the metric system, it's something the rest of the western world has embraced that the US is holding out on.

I lived in the US for over 30 years. I did the HMO thing. I know what it's like over there. And yeah, my personal opinion is that the system here is better and the US should do things more like things are done here.

The fact that the US chooses to spend its money unwisely doesn't make our healthcare system any less valid. Take the billions you spend on foreign wars and corporate welfare and channel that into the domestic economy, stop sending US dollars overseas through foreign trade imbalances, and perhaps the US wouldn't be the sinking ship that it is.

China: Hey US here's some plastic crap for your landfills!
US: Shut up and take my money!

Seriously, don't go whining about economic pressures when they are largely self-inflicted and come as absolutely no surprise given the way the country has been run.


http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2013/04 ... s-insists/

Since I always harp about wasteful military spending..
The Element of Forum Hyperbole
Image
---
Flüttershy - Draenei Protection Paladin, Aerie Peak
Klaudandus - BE Protection Paladin, Feathermoon (Semi-retired)
User avatar
Klaudandus
 
Posts: 9340
Joined: Thu Apr 02, 2009 7:08 am
Location: Texas' Armpit

PreviousNext

Return to Arkham Asylum

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest

Who is online

In total there is 1 user online :: 0 registered, 0 hidden and 1 guest (based on users active over the past 5 minutes)
Most users ever online was 380 on Tue Oct 14, 2008 6:28 pm

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest