Politics (formerly Election 2012)

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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Koatanga » Wed May 08, 2013 4:22 pm

Fridmarr wrote:High level:
Basically when certain workers work more than 40 hours a week, they get paid overtime.  Overtime is paid at 1.5x their normal hourly rate.  This bill would allow workers to choose between overtime pay and comp time.  Comp time is basically paid hours off work, basically additional vacation.  The bill states that comp time be awarded (at a minimum) at the same rate as overtime pay.  1.5hours per overtime hour worked.
 
It really can be quite handy to have that flexibility, and it's totally a choice.  The worker can take the pay or even if the worker takes the hours and doesn't use them, the worker can cash the hours back in for the pay anyhow.

Comp time wouldn't do me any good. I'm too busy to take my normally accrued vacation time, much less any additional comp time.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Fridmarr » Wed May 08, 2013 4:24 pm

Ok...so take the pay. The only change is the additional choice.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Paxen » Wed May 08, 2013 11:50 pm

If a worker *is* pressured to take the time (instead of the money), what would be his recourse under the new law?

I don't think suing your employer is going to end well if you want to continue working there...
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Nooska » Thu May 09, 2013 1:43 am

How is that anti-worker? In one of the most socialist nations in europe (scandinavian socialism) that has been the norm for... 30 or 40 years - originally driven by the unions, because they didn't want to be "forced" to work overtime (you know, the kind where the person staying moves up, or is kept on when lay offs happen) and didn't want an artificial extension of the workweek (which aroundhere is down to 37 hours, with 6 weeks of paid vacation, and various holidays as well)
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Fridmarr » Thu May 09, 2013 6:01 am

Paxen wrote:If a worker *is* pressured to take the time (instead of the money), what would be his recourse under the new law?

I don't think suing your employer is going to end well if you want to continue working there...
The bill is just altering the Fair Labor Standards act, so I'd assume it's similar to any other sort of compensation grievance under that act.

Being fired for filing a grievance opens up another can of worms for the employer though.


Nooska wrote:How is that anti-worker?
Just standard partisan politics here. I think in pretty much every article I've read, the term pro-worker in reference to this bill or the GOP has been in quotes, it's an embarrassment but nothing new.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Shoju » Thu May 09, 2013 6:43 am

My biggest objection is the removal of recourse through the system, and the need to pursue it in court.

That's incredibly anti worker IMO.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Fridmarr » Thu May 09, 2013 8:25 am

Shoju wrote:My biggest objection is the removal of recourse through the system, and the need to pursue it in court.

That's incredibly anti worker IMO.


Well I disagree that that would make the bill anti worker, but I think it's moot because I don't think the assertion is accurate.  I've seen a few other articles suggest the same thing, but a ton of the articles I've read are blatantly false.  They just reaffirm my years old choice about not reading that crap.
 
I've read the bill, it's actually fairly short and not totally full of legalese so it's not too difficult to read.  I didn't see anything to suggest that the grievance process was changed.  First, it's not clear to me, that such current disputes are currently handled through some system. Well, outside of collective bargaining but that supersedes this too.
 
The only section in the new bill dealing with remedies is simply restating (almost word for word) the text dealing with employers violating the overtime pay provision, but just changing it to refer to the overtime compensatory time provision.  In other words, it basically says all the recourse stuff dealing with overtime pay also deals with overtime comp time, and it states the same liability level.

Is my interpretation inaccurate?
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Klaudandus » Fri May 10, 2013 5:59 am

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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby KysenMurrin » Fri May 10, 2013 7:01 am

Wait... is it actually legal for a state to ban the enforcement of federal law?
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Fridmarr » Fri May 10, 2013 10:08 am

Yes and no. The legalization of marijuana in Washington and Colorado is an example. State and local law enforcement consider possession (of less than an oz) and use legal and will not arrest you for it. A federal agent however considers it illegal and can arrest you for it.

I think the feds can take the states to court to get their legalization laws thrown out, but it's a grey area.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Flex » Fri May 10, 2013 10:10 am

UN Sustainability voodoo is the best voodoo.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby KysenMurrin » Fri May 10, 2013 10:11 am

There's a difference between legalising something that the federal forces consider illegal, and making enforcing federal law a criminal offence, though.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Fridmarr » Fri May 10, 2013 10:19 am

KysenMurrin wrote:There's a difference between legalising something that the federal forces consider illegal, and making enforcing federal law a criminal offence, though.

As far as the public goes it's the same.

The only effect is on a federal officer that attempts to enforce the federal law. I'm skeptical that that would work.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Klaudandus » Fri May 10, 2013 11:28 am

http://livewire.talkingpointsmemo.com/e ... r-benghazi

"Of all the great cover-ups in history - the Pentagon papers, the Iran-Contra, Wategrate and all the rest of them - this ... is going to go down as the most serious, the most egregious cover-up in American history," Inhofe said during an appearance...
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Let's see...
- 2002: 10 dead in Karachi
- 2004: 9 injured in Uzbekistan
- 2004: 6 dead in Saudi Arabia
- 2006: 1 dead in Syria
- 2008: 10 dead in Yemen

As horrible and regrettable the attack on Benghazi was, fake outrage is fake.

Also, it's hard to take Fox News seriously seeing how they tout Oliver North as their expert when it comes to cover-ups, and then accusing Pickering and Mullen of lacking integrity.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Flex » Fri May 10, 2013 12:50 pm

We live in a society where people born on third base constantly try to steal second, yet we expect people born with two strikes against them to hit a homerun on the first pitch.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Klaudandus » Fri May 10, 2013 12:55 pm



I completely agree. The town I live has had its fair share of tragedies where elementary and middle school kids take guns to the school and end up killing another kid there. Of course it doesnt make national news because... well, my town is basically Texas' armpit. No one cares about it.

Edit: Weird, i can only find records of one fatal shooting, from 1995, but I do recall another school shooting not much later. Did find records of another shooting where a kid is shot and killed by another kid at their house.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Jabari » Thu May 16, 2013 7:53 am

Hmm, no posts here in a week. Nothing at all interesting must be happening in politics. At all. Nothing.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Klaudandus » Thu May 16, 2013 8:00 am

No one replies anymore.

Irs. Yeah, they should be held accountable, but if i recall, some of these organizations were targeted for looking tax exempt status as a political group rather than for being a social welfare group, which do get tax exempt status. Heck, the bronies got a charity started and are now tax exempt!

Ap. ugh, yeah, someone needs to go to jail for this.

Benghazi? Said it before... Fake outrage.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Fridmarr » Thu May 16, 2013 12:33 pm

I'm totally lost on your logic about the fake outrage.  When you claimed that outrage was fake, you were citing previous incidents with death numbers.  I fail to see how that is relevant.
 
That said, I'm sure there's plenty of grandstanding going on and the positions would be different with a different administration, but that would be across both parties.  Just be fair and recognize that.
 
Both the IRS thing and the AP thing are quite similar.  They both seem to be a grevious abuse of power.  Fortunately, the consequences on the IRS side seem minor.  On the media side, that is much harder to determine.  There is no rationalizing what happened, and attempts to do so are a little scary.  More transparency and oversight should be mandated to make sure that doesn't happen again.
 
For the record, I replied about the overtime/comp time legislation, but got no response (that was accurate) to suggest that the bill was anything less than a solid idea, much less anything backing the claim of it being a big load croak, anti-worker, and typical GOP scum.
 
I think what Jabari is getting at, is that it's been quiet because the homers are taking a beating right now in the news cycle.  If there was more objectivity, this thread would be hopping.  Maybe all the one sided outrage in this thread is fake?
 
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Shoju » Thu May 16, 2013 12:40 pm

The Benghazi stuff is just a partisan witch hunt. Nothing more, Nothing less.

I actually think the intro skit on SNL not too long ago was spot on.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Flex » Thu May 16, 2013 1:04 pm

Fridmarr wrote:Fortunately, the consequences on the IRS side seem minor.


The big consequence is that any hope of reform to curb abuse by that type of non-profit is now dead in the water.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby fuzzygeek » Thu May 16, 2013 6:28 pm

There's little point in trying to have a conversation with a True Believer. If it's not a dialogue there's nothing useful to be gleaned.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Klaudandus » Thu May 16, 2013 7:06 pm

Fridmarr wrote:For the record, I replied about the overtime/comp time legislation, but got no response (that was accurate) to suggest that the bill was anything less than a solid idea, much less anything backing the claim of it being a big load croak, anti-worker, and typical GOP scum.
 
I think what Jabari is getting at, is that it's been quiet because the homers are taking a beating right now in the news cycle.  If there was more objectivity, this thread would be hopping.  Maybe all the one sided outrage in this thread is fake?
 

I gotta say I overreacted to the comp time bill, probably because i've been on the receiving end of the abuse of that.

Yeah, I cannot actually go ahead and say I'll take the overtime, they force me into compensation time.

Anyways... I just cannot muster any outrage for Benghazi, specially when the GOP calls it worse than watergate, iran-contra and the pentagon papers COMBINED (yeah, they said that), and also because there were many more deaths under Bush at embassies/consulates but I dont remember the GOP being even remotely upset about it back then.

Like I said, don't get me wrong, any loss of human life is horrible, and its incredibly sad what happened at Benghazi, but the GOP is trying too hard to make it more than it really was -- specially when either Ryan or Paul said it was all about weakening Clinton for the '16 race.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Fridmarr » Thu May 16, 2013 8:28 pm

As has been said, it's mostly a witch hunt. One that both parties eagerly engage in, but still a witch hunt. But that said, it's not the deaths that they are harping on, which is why the comments about death counts don't make much sense. It's the alleged coverup, and what exactly is being covered up that has their dander up.

As for overtime, are you sure you aren't exempt? Otherwise what they are doing is currently illegal and that wouldn't change (though that bill isn't going to see the light of day). If you are exempt, they don't have to give you jack shit, so getting comp time is a bonus and most definitely not abuse (the other possibility is that they are following a collective bargaining contract). I'm exempt as well so the bill wouldn't directly affect me.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Klaudandus » Thu May 16, 2013 8:52 pm

Fridmarr wrote:As has been said, it's mostly a witch hunt. One that both parties eagerly engage in, but still a witch hunt. But that said, it's not the deaths that they are harping on, which is why the comments about death counts don't make much sense. It's the alleged coverup, and what exactly is being covered up that has their dander up.

As for overtime, are you sure you aren't exempt? Otherwise what they are doing is currently illegal and that wouldn't change (though that bill isn't going to see the light of day). If you are exempt, they don't have to give you jack shit, so getting comp time is a bonus and most definitely not abuse (the other possibility is that they are following a collective bargaining contract). I'm exempt as well so the bill wouldn't directly affect me.


Yeah, I agree there was a degree of cover-up, but calling it Iran-Contra+Watergate+Pentagon Papers times 10, as several GOP'rs and FOX News have called it, is so disingenuous that is probably the reason why they're not getting any traction whatsoever when trying to convince others something went on.

I mean, Dick Cheney is on record saying its the worse thing ever he can recall in his life.... I swear my eyes rolled back so hard I went blind for close to an hour.

And, no, I don't think I fall under Exempt status, seeing as like once a year, I do get paid overtime, but 95% of the extra-duty performed is given to me as comp time instead... oh yeah, I have to take it within the same month, at least as per our CTO >=/
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