Politics (formerly Election 2012)

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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Fridmarr » Wed Apr 10, 2013 1:02 pm

Still terrible. Tying gov't assistance for a household to a child's academic achievement is fundamentally flawed.
 
Unfortunately, it sounds like that legislation is moving forward.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Darielle » Wed Apr 10, 2013 4:51 pm

Thinking more about it, I was thinking of a compromise. You really don't remove assistance to the families, but you do reduce it by a set percentage, conversely... if the kid does really well, you reward the family by increasing their assistance by a set percentage.


There's no reward in the system unless they're actually getting welfare beyond what they should be (and if that's the case, the hell is the point of the welfare system?), it's just straight punishment.

More, you're putting income in the hands of a kid, adding pressure on top of the pressures of school/being a kid. It's all a recipe for superflaw.

Some kids are just not as good at exams. Some kids walk in with no study and ace it.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Koatanga » Wed Apr 10, 2013 5:54 pm

It will probably pass because to be politically correct you have to assume that all people are in fact equal and therefore equally capable of performing in school. In reality, you don't generally find brilliant people who can't do any better in life than to collect welfare money, so welfare recipients tend to be in the lower-IQ range, the genes for which they pass along to their children, along with study habits and general attitude toward school that the kids learn from their parents.

Welfare kids are, in general, screwed on both the nature and nurture fronts. That's why success stories about kids emerging from the ghetto to do well in life are interesting. If it was commonplace, it wouldn't be interesting.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Fridmarr » Wed Apr 10, 2013 8:39 pm

Koatanga wrote:It will probably pass because to be politically correct you have to assume that all people are in fact equal
You've mentioned this a couple of times, so I think it's worth pointing out that your understanding of how this works does not seem to be accurate.

No where in the constitution (to include the bill of rights), is there a mention about men being created equal. That "prose" comes from the Declaration of Independence which isn't a legislative document. The closest thing the constitution has is the equal protection clause of the 14th amendment.

Regardless, the notion (even in the Declaration of Independence) has never been understood to mean anything other than equal standing under the law. It's quite obvious that people are not in fact equal, and that's never been a legislative standard in the US. This particular legislation is definitely not "politically correct" in any sense of the expression. Heck, considering the demographics of folks whom would be penalized, it's actually quite at odds with the notion of political correctness.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby fuzzygeek » Wed Apr 10, 2013 11:25 pm

I think it was more a reference to one party demanding Equality of Outcome, whilst the other demands Equality of Opportunity. One stance is certainly seen as being more "PC" than the other.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Paxen » Wed Apr 10, 2013 11:52 pm

fuzzygeek wrote:I think it was more a reference to one party demanding Equality of Outcome, whilst the other demands Equality of Opportunity. One stance is certainly seen as being more "PC" than the other.


I'd have more respect for the "Equality of Opportunity" folks if opportunity was, in fact, equal, when it's so blindingly obvious that the opportunities for a kid whose parents went to Harvard are miles above the opportunities of a ghetto kid.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby fuzzygeek » Thu Apr 11, 2013 12:14 am

Paxen wrote:I'd have more respect for the "Equality of Opportunity" folks if opportunity was, in fact, equal, when it's so blindingly obvious that the opportunities for a kid whose parents went to Harvard are miles above the opportunities of a ghetto kid.


So how do you address the disparity?
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby KysenMurrin » Thu Apr 11, 2013 12:22 am

Socialism. Unfortunately.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Paxen » Thu Apr 11, 2013 1:31 am

fuzzygeek wrote:So how do you address the disparity?


Plenty of ways. The first step is admitting that there is a problem, and realizing that poor people are usually not dumb and lazy.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Klaudandus » Thu Apr 11, 2013 4:21 am

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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Klaudandus » Thu Apr 11, 2013 6:01 am

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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Fivelives » Thu Apr 11, 2013 11:42 am

In wildly other news, any thoughts on this whole "Operation Northwoods" thing running around the internet? It looks like lame conspiracy fodder to me, but considering the responsibilities of think tanks it's not impossible that it's legit. Think tanks are there specifically to come up with off-the-wall contingency plans (including things that will probably NEVER happen like zombie outbreaks and alien invasions), and it could be a legitimate think tank plan. Although it stinks to absolute high heavens that it wasn't declassified during an automatic review like most other declassified documents (at 10/25/50/75 years - this one was declassified at 51 years). Although it could've been late just because of a backlog in the classification review system.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Nooska » Fri Apr 12, 2013 5:58 am

KysenMurrin wrote:Socialism. Unfortunately.

*likes*. *dislikes*. (in that order)

But to stay on the subject matter, it is an idea that causes its own failure. If my family recieves les welfare because my kid does poorly in school, how am I then to support the kid to do better, when I have even more trouble making ends meet? its not something that causes less stress and more time/surplus to help and tutor my kid to become better, and I just lost a chunk of money that could possibly have been invested in a tutor.

Not if we wanut kids to have a better outcome, we (yeah, "we", though I'm not US) should incentivize extra help - kid doing poorly in school? you qualify for an extra "check" for tutelage - quite easy to avoid scamming as it could just be a school run programme, or the money went straight to the tutor (who should be approved by a relevant authority)
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby KysenMurrin » Fri Apr 12, 2013 6:15 am

I have to agree that giving additional funds to help struggling students is the much better way to approach things - and you'd do it through schools funding, not on individual families.

Welfare is supposed to provide what the recipient needs, not what they deserve (by some arbitrary and unfair definition of worth).
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Klaudandus » Fri Apr 12, 2013 10:02 am

Not sure what Fridmarr would think of this
http://news.yahoo.com/5-hard-changes-ad ... 00206.html
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Shoju » Fri Apr 12, 2013 11:25 am

And in today's "Hi, I'm a republican, and say stupid shit and think I'm smart" category, we have a gem from

Re-Election campaign for Texas Rep Steve Stockman.

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What a FREAKING IDIOT.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby KysenMurrin » Fri Apr 12, 2013 11:37 am

Ouch. Particularly bad on the back of news stories circulating recently of toddlers accidentally killing their parents with guns.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby fuzzygeek » Fri Apr 12, 2013 1:27 pm

You think he's stating serious policy and not trying to be funny?
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Paxen » Fri Apr 12, 2013 4:12 pm

fuzzygeek wrote:You think he's stating serious policy and not trying to be funny?


Still in a bit of bad taste with the recent incident where that 4-year old killed his playmate.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Fridmarr » Fri Apr 12, 2013 11:36 pm

Klaudandus wrote:Not sure what Fridmarr would think of this
http://news.yahoo.com/5-hard-changes-ad ... 00206.html
To some degree I like all of it.

I think number one is a little odd though. I'm for phasing out all tax deductions, that I own a house and have children is a stupid reason for me to pay less taxes than someone else who makes as much as I do. To that point though, simply isolating state/local tax reductions is odd, and using the stupid "over 10 years" claim makes me want to kick the dog. He's also not entirely correct, like in WA where we do not have an income tax to deduct, for some years (it changes as tax policy changes) we can deduct sales tax in its place. His broader point is that we need to increase taxes overall (aka more revenue) and I'd agree with that to an extent.

I'm all for reducing military spending, significantly.
I'm all for less punishment of "victimless crimes".
I'm all for reducing the effect of special interests. The trick here is how to accomplish that. He seems to be advocating that it can be accomplished by reducing subsidies, which I'm in favor of, but I think that's a pretty small step. You reduce it drastically by reducing the power that such a small group of people has to influence corporations on a global scale, which can be accomplished by transitioning that power to the state/local levels where it always should have been.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Nooska » Sat Apr 13, 2013 1:36 am

A "scary" thing about political standpoints.

Fridmarr, if you were to move over here, to Denmark, you could probably find some poeple agree ing with you in the conservative party, but to a large degree, what you propose and want over the course of what I've read of you in thsi thread, you would be more at home on the left, with us from the socialists people's party.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby fuzzygeek » Sun Apr 14, 2013 10:16 am

Paxen wrote:Still in a bit of bad taste with the recent incident where that 4-year old killed his playmate.


Unless this silly bumpersticker came out in direct response to that news story, this criticism is nonsensical.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Klaudandus » Sun Apr 14, 2013 12:29 pm

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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Klaudandus » Mon Apr 15, 2013 8:52 am

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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby KysenMurrin » Mon Apr 15, 2013 11:31 am

I don't really disagree with the overall sentiment of the article, but that big quote near the top seems fishy. Saying that fundamentalist views aren't mainstream by comparing them to polls of... Catholics?

The article itself I can't see really doing much more than preaching to the choir - a number of the things talked about (like belief in the geocentric model of the universe) most readers would find hard to believe were held as true by an influential number of people.
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