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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Fridmarr » Mon Feb 25, 2013 1:23 pm

Koatanga

Fairly recently (within the last year) a lot of that vaccination stuff came to a head. Sadly, a lot of the autism fear via vaccinations was started through flawed research.

The main researcher was recently throughly discredited and I believe it was shown that not only was the research faulty, but he also falsified data.

Unfortunately, a lot of damage was done, and too many people opted out of vaccines.  Hopefully that's a trend that is reversing now that the data shows that there is no link.  (Sorry, I forget the researcher's name, but I'm sure google will give you lots of data about him if you care to search on the topic.)
 
Whooping cough probably wouldn't be eradicated by vaccines since that's not a permanent vaccine, but I totally get where you are coming from.  The measles is another one of those preventable diseases that has managed to flare up every now and again with the laxed attitudes towards vaccines.
 
I'm sorry your daughter has it, it sucks.  I hope it stays mild and goes away quickly.
 
 
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby fuzzygeek » Mon Feb 25, 2013 2:18 pm

Koatanga wrote:That's like medieval crap that should have been stamped out along with the plague and the crusades. It's ridiculous that in this day and age people should be able to catch something that has had a vaccine for ages.


Should the government be able to mandate vaccinations?
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Klaudandus » Mon Feb 25, 2013 2:24 pm

I know this sounds pretty close to "A Modest Proposal" but maybe we did wrong with coming up with vaccinations.

Population has skyrocketed. Life expectancy is as high as it has ever been... We're about 6.2 billion people are the number keeps going up.

Disease was one of nature's ways to keep us in check... It's like all those niche ecosystems that have been ruined either because some rats, some rabbits or some cats landed into an island where they have no natural predators...

Germs were our natural predators... and eventually the Red Queen is gonna strike us back with a vengeance.

But I digress, so... politics... hmmm... *rummages thru his feeds*
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http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/02/2 ... f=politics
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Cogglamp » Mon Feb 25, 2013 3:05 pm

Growth rates have been consistently falling since the 1950s. Much of the Western world is already below a fertility rate of 2.1.

Most of the growth is happening in developing nations and as they become more wealthy you're going to see the fertility rate fall drastically as health and longevity of life increase.

While this may put pressure on resources, you have a falling consumption index in the Western world as they gray and die out. It will put enormous pressure on our healthcare and entitlement programs in the short run but we're dramatically slowing down our consumption simply based on fewer babies being born into a consumer society.

The population is supposed to stabilize at 10 billion by 2100.

Other than burying our sickly and malformed children on top of a hill like the Spartans, I'm not sure what you're proposing here. Shall we re-introduce polio and small pox back into the world?
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Fridmarr » Mon Feb 25, 2013 3:22 pm

fuzzygeek wrote:
Koatanga wrote:That's like medieval crap that should have been stamped out along with the plague and the crusades. It's ridiculous that in this day and age people should be able to catch something that has had a vaccine for ages.


Should the government be able to mandate vaccinations?

What about criminal responsibility for spreading such a disease if you choose to forego the vaccine?
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Nooska » Mon Feb 25, 2013 5:49 pm

While vaccinations don't cause autism (and yeah, autism spectrum disorders are not a death sentence - I have Aspergers, my son has been diagnosed with PDD-NOS - my mom thinks its a detahsentence and tries her darnedest to convince people that I don't have ASP, and my son doesn't have PDD-NOS, that we are just "gifted" people with "typical" "personality traits" - she scared to death of a diagnosis that can actually open up the help offers from the state and municipality *sigh*) - vaccinations can cause meningitis, though the severity of the vaccination caused meningitis is lower than the meningitis you risk getting from the childrens disease (can't remember which one it is off the top of my head).

That said, I don't think its productive (or ethical) to mandate vaccinations (of any kind), but I do believe in offering them free of charge (and am happy that the HPV vaccine was made free of charge for the years up to and including the finacees birth year - just sad that it hasn't yet been made available for males for free around here, since it also prevents - erhmm was it prostate and testicular cancer I think)
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Koatanga » Mon Feb 25, 2013 7:02 pm

I voted with my daughter. She's fully immunised with every vaccine offered here. She's a perfectly normal 7-yr-old, except she's tops of her class in maths, has a reading age of 13, swims competitively, and enjoys team sports as well. She's also has impeccable manners and is very kind and helpful to everyone around her.

We would like to take credit for her, and there is some evidence that her brains come genetically, but we realise we just got one of the good ones.

The very thought that she could get meningitis sends chills down my spine. I could not imagine how different her life, and all our lives, would be if she lost her arms and legs - or her life - to that horrific disease. How someone could allow the chance of that happening just because of some hokum about autism is completely beyond me. Even if there was a chance of her getting autism from the vaccine, it's still better than a chance of getting meningitis.

The idiots who don't get vaccinated are usually protected by "herd immunity" which is the concept that if you are surrounded by people who don't get the disease and therefore don't spread the disease, you won't get it even if you are not immunised. This reinforces the idea that you don't have to get your kids immunised, which is a bunch of crap. It's those kids who keep these diseases in circulation.

I really hate irresponsible parents.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby fuzzygeek » Mon Feb 25, 2013 8:04 pm

Nooska wrote:That said, I don't think its productive (or ethical) to mandate vaccinations (of any kind), but I do believe in offering them free of charge (and am happy that the HPV vaccine was made free of charge for the years up to and including the finacees birth year - just sad that it hasn't yet been made available for males for free around here, since it also prevents - erhmm was it prostate and testicular cancer I think)


What about incentives? Like, tax credits for vaccinating your hellspawn?
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby aureon » Mon Feb 25, 2013 8:51 pm

Fridmarr wrote:They're basically the same. MSNBC is open about it, but they aren't any different than the others in degree either. A mile...seriously? A few months ago, in this very thread, it was like pulling teeth to get you to acknowledge MSNBC leaned left at all. "no democratic equivalent to fox news" despite MSNBC's obvious intent to be just that. They're pretty obviously not a mile away from Fox and they don't want to be either.

It stands to reason then that NBC doesn't fall to far from the MSNBC tree, especially with Matthew's hosting shows there too. Good grief just look at that dude's past, it's not exactly a primer on journalistic ethics. I actually like Matthews, but lets not pretend he doesn't obviously have an agenda.

I mentioned ABC's prime political figure Stephanopoulos earlier, he's a former Dukakis and Clinton campaign strategist. He became one of Clinton's policy advisers and semi press secretary, his allegiances are pretty clear. I could go on through daytime programming and the rest. The broadcast stations are a little more tame overall, but just because they don't spend a lot of time on politics, but when they do they have their own issues.

You can follow the media watch dog groups it you want, both sides have them. Granted they are biased too and are looking for a specific bent, but they have absolutely no shortage of garbage to sort through and they do tear apart plenty of nonsense. It's hard to objectively look at what the mainstream media is regularly producing and single out one station as if there is not a whole ton crap all around.


Reality leans left.
That's the problem you think media has in America.
I mean, as i understand, Marx is considered the devil in America, of Stalininian proportions. Overseas, that's normally enough to shock someone into "Wow, sure the Americans don't even know what left is".
There is one party, in your country, which refuses to acknowledge facts, and one party that more or less comes to terms with them.
When the media sites with the party that actually acknowledges facts, it isn't because it's "Biased" towards that party: It's because the fact tell that said party is right, and the other party is wrong.
When ignoring facts becomes an habit, the fact that media more-or-less consistently sides with one side, can make you think the media is biased, but that's not necessarily true. It can be, of course, but the definition of "biased" is not "consistently gives one side the upper hand", but rather "twists the facts to make their side look better", which is not exactly a behavior i see taken to the extremes of Fox News.

PS: Yes, We have gone through random Fox/MSNBC articles the round before, and that wasn't very convincing.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Klaudandus » Mon Feb 25, 2013 9:09 pm

aureon wrote:Reality leans left.


Colbert actually said it in his show "Reality has a well-known liberal bias" XD

Conversely, so does science...
http://prospect.org/article/reality-bites
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby bldavis » Mon Feb 25, 2013 10:49 pm

Nooska wrote:While vaccinations don't cause autism (and yeah, autism spectrum disorders are not a death sentence - I have Aspergers, my son has been diagnosed with PDD-NOS - my mom thinks its a detahsentence and tries her darnedest to convince people that I don't have ASP, and my son doesn't have PDD-NOS, that we are just "gifted" people with "typical" "personality traits" - she scared to death of a diagnosis that can actually open up the help offers from the state and municipality *sigh*) - vaccinations can cause meningitis, though the severity of the vaccination caused meningitis is lower than the meningitis you risk getting from the childrens disease (can't remember which one it is off the top of my head).

That said, I don't think its productive (or ethical) to mandate vaccinations (of any kind), but I do believe in offering them free of charge (and am happy that the HPV vaccine was made free of charge for the years up to and including the finacees birth year - just sad that it hasn't yet been made available for males for free around here, since it also prevents - erhmm was it prostate and testicular cancer I think)

hmm your mom sounds like my grandmother

my dad has a form of it based on symptoms, my sisters both were tested and diagnosed with it, and i probably have a form of it

but between me being male, and not diagnosed, i had a lot more expected of me by her, while she treated my sisters like crap, basically second class citizens just because they had different learning challenges and ways of learning than "normal" kids
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Fridmarr » Mon Feb 25, 2013 11:05 pm

aureon wrote:Reality leans left.
That's the problem you think media has in America.
I mean, as i understand, Marx is considered the devil in America, of Stalininian proportions. Overseas, that's normally enough to shock someone into "Wow, sure the Americans don't even know what left is".
There is one party, in your country, which refuses to acknowledge facts, and one party that more or less comes to terms with them.
When the media sites with the party that actually acknowledges facts, it isn't because it's "Biased" towards that party: It's because the fact tell that said party is right, and the other party is wrong.
When ignoring facts becomes an habit, the fact that media more-or-less consistently sides with one side, can make you think the media is biased, but that's not necessarily true. It can be, of course, but the definition of "biased" is not "consistently gives one side the upper hand", but rather "twists the facts to make their side look better", which is not exactly a behavior i see taken to the extremes of Fox News.

PS: Yes, We have gone through random Fox/MSNBC articles the round before, and that wasn't very convincing.

Of course it wasn't convincing to you, as the last MSNBC holdout even among the liberals, your mind is made up. Facts clearly aren't going to change it. Speaking of facts, settle down on the dumb generalizations a bit. Neither party has a monopoly on facts or bullshit, if anything about US politics should be obvious there is that.

I think at this point, I'll follow Jabari's advice.

Klaudandus wrote:Conversely, so does science...
http://prospect.org/article/reality-bites
Actually that would be scientists not science. And it's not so much left, it's Democrat. Those are significant points.

I pointed out very early in this thread that the GOP screwed the pooch in that regard, it's one of their most annoying problems and one of the biggest reasons that they need to shed the religious right.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Koatanga » Tue Feb 26, 2013 1:35 am

Klaudandus wrote:Image
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/02/2 ... f=politics
Montana Tea Party Leader's rather interesting facebook post

You know, I am white-bread descended from people who roamed the black forest and burned at the mere thought of sunlight, and I absolutely love watermelon. And fried chicken.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Nooska » Tue Feb 26, 2013 4:33 am

fuzzygeek wrote:
Nooska wrote:That said, I don't think its productive (or ethical) to mandate vaccinations (of any kind), but I do believe in offering them free of charge (and am happy that the HPV vaccine was made free of charge for the years up to and including the finacees birth year - just sad that it hasn't yet been made available for males for free around here, since it also prevents - erhmm was it prostate and testicular cancer I think)


What about incentives? Like, tax credits for vaccinating your hellspawn?


I'm against it, incentivising is just another way of mandating it (especially for poor people). I'm all for vaccinating - my son hass all the vaccinations that are part of the vaccination programme as put together by the states board of health (non-political entity), who are far smarter about it than I. Vaccinations don't guarantee immunity though, sadly, for some people. I wasn't vaccinated myself a whole lot, just polio, tetanus, pertussis and difteria - I had measles before hitting the age where it was offered (has since been lowered), and had the mumps twice and rubella twice as well (sucky immune system as a kid).
Currently I get the flu shot every year (I get it offered for no charge due to my status as an asthmatic), I'm all for vaccinations, and as said, the sideeffects from getting the shot, are lower risk than getting them from the actual disease, and if you get them, usually milder.

bldavis wrote:
Nooska wrote:While vaccinations don't cause autism (and yeah, autism spectrum disorders are not a death sentence - I have Aspergers, my son has been diagnosed with PDD-NOS - my mom thinks its a detahsentence and tries her darnedest to convince people that I don't have ASP, and my son doesn't have PDD-NOS, that we are just "gifted" people with "typical" "personality traits" - she scared to death of a diagnosis that can actually open up the help offers from the state and municipality *sigh*) - vaccinations can cause meningitis, though the severity of the vaccination caused meningitis is lower than the meningitis you risk getting from the childrens disease (can't remember which one it is off the top of my head).

That said, I don't think its productive (or ethical) to mandate vaccinations (of any kind), but I do believe in offering them free of charge (and am happy that the HPV vaccine was made free of charge for the years up to and including the finacees birth year - just sad that it hasn't yet been made available for males for free around here, since it also prevents - erhmm was it prostate and testicular cancer I think)

hmm your mom sounds like my grandmother

my dad has a form of it based on symptoms, my sisters both were tested and diagnosed with it, and i probably have a form of it

but between me being male, and not diagnosed, i had a lot more expected of me by her, while she treated my sisters like crap, basically second class citizens just because they had different learning challenges and ways of learning than "normal" kids

Well at least she acknowledges the symptoms (though she won't acknowledge the challlenges stemming from them, and turns a blind eye to anything that would put what she acknowledges over the line to diagnosis territory)

But to be told that that disorder you have that makes parts of your life that others find natural and intuitive into challenges, just because the symptoms are prevalent in "gifted" children, is ... annoying ... to say the least.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Koatanga » Tue Feb 26, 2013 12:02 pm

fuzzygeek wrote:What about incentives? Like, tax credits for vaccinating your hellspawn?


I'd be for it.

Kids who don't get vaccinated keep diseases circulating, which costs money in doctor visits and medication. If you are responsible and have your children vaccinated, you save the public money either directly (my kid does not pass on a disease to your kid), or indirectly (you don't have to pay the doctor bills of low-income people whose kids get sick).

So why not reward people who vaccinate their children by giving them some of the money that would otherwise be spent on treatment, in the form of a tax break? Makes perfect sense to me.

As far as the argument that it then becomes a de-facto mandate, I am OK with that as well. I think vaccination should be mandatory, and certainly a requirement for enrollment in schools.
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