Politics (formerly Election 2012)

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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Fridmarr » Sun Feb 24, 2013 9:24 am

Aubade wrote:I think to get down to the issue some people have with Fox News is the fact that there are a large number of the voting public who take exactly what fox says (everything.) As fact, and think it has 0 spin.

There are close relatives of mine who have said to me "Obama is most definitely a muslim, there is proof, and he is a registered muslim"
To which I responded "Uhh, where did you see this? Is there proof? I find it extremely unlikely."
My relative: "It was on the news."
"Which news? Did they have a reliable source?"
"Fox News, so it's definitely reliable."


And they aren't kidding. This is my problem; they SAY they are an honest un-biased news source but anyone with an open mind and a drive for the truth can see this isn't true. The large majority of the Voting population (In more cases Republican than democrat) don't care to do any research, and don't believe that a news source would lie to them (GASP THAT'D BE BLASPHEMY) And that the people they put on their shows only speak 100% the truth.

They don't.
They know they have the credibility with a lot of people and take advantage of it.
I'm not defending Fox news, I'm indicting the other news services. You single out Fox news as if the other news services don't do that. They do. They are just as bad, they just spin a different direction.

And you don't have to look very far to find evidence of it. This thread has plenty of links. follow some of them. We had one that basically twisted Romney's words to say that he thought corporations were people but teachers were not, it was an absurd article and it came from CBS.

So if you're being honest, you should have the same problem with all of our mainstream media as you do with Fox.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby bldavis » Sun Feb 24, 2013 3:51 pm

Fridmarr wrote:So if you're being honest, you should have the same problem with all of our mainstream media as you do with Fox.

which i do anymore

i dont believe any of them 100%
and so tend to get news from several sources and try to piece them all together and come up with what the TRUE story is
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby aureon » Sun Feb 24, 2013 10:30 pm

Fridmarr wrote:I'm not defending Fox news, I'm indicting the other news services. You single out Fox news as if the other news services don't do that. They do. They are just as bad, they just spin a different direction.

And you don't have to look very far to find evidence of it. This thread has plenty of links. follow some of them. We had one that basically twisted Romney's words to say that he thought corporations were people but teachers were not, it was an absurd article and it came from CBS.

So if you're being honest, you should have the same problem with all of our mainstream media as you do with Fox.

No one ever said mainstream media is completely beyond reproach.
It's a matter of degree: Fox is the worst of the bunch, and by a mile. Then comes msnbc, and another mile later, all the mainstream media.

The GOP has a bad problem with facts, to the point that the phrase "Facts have a known liberal bias" is now a decade old.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Fridmarr » Mon Feb 25, 2013 12:09 am

They're basically the same. MSNBC is open about it, but they aren't any different than the others in degree either. A mile...seriously? A few months ago, in this very thread, it was like pulling teeth to get you to acknowledge MSNBC leaned left at all. "no democratic equivalent to fox news" despite MSNBC's obvious intent to be just that. They're pretty obviously not a mile away from Fox and they don't want to be either.

It stands to reason then that NBC doesn't fall to far from the MSNBC tree, especially with Matthew's hosting shows there too. Good grief just look at that dude's past, it's not exactly a primer on journalistic ethics. I actually like Matthews, but lets not pretend he doesn't obviously have an agenda.

I mentioned ABC's prime political figure Stephanopoulos earlier, he's a former Dukakis and Clinton campaign strategist. He became one of Clinton's policy advisers and semi press secretary, his allegiances are pretty clear. I could go on through daytime programming and the rest. The broadcast stations are a little more tame overall, but just because they don't spend a lot of time on politics, but when they do they have their own issues.

You can follow the media watch dog groups it you want, both sides have them. Granted they are biased too and are looking for a specific bent, but they have absolutely no shortage of garbage to sort through and they do tear apart plenty of nonsense. It's hard to objectively look at what the mainstream media is regularly producing and single out one station as if there is not a whole ton crap all around.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Klaudandus » Mon Feb 25, 2013 6:44 am

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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Jabari » Mon Feb 25, 2013 10:17 am

Forget it, Frid. You tried, but rabbits gonna rabbit. *shrug*


Re: Media Bias - you have to look for what doesn't get reported. Whether that bit is a small detail (what party is the San Diego ex-mayor that gambled a ton her husband's charity money?), or complete blackout of stories (Bob Menendez?).

Which media is talking truthfully about the debt/deficit situation, and giving actual numbers? Oh yeah, none of them.

Nothing like this, certainly:
http://market-ticker.org/akcs-www?post=217892

@bldavis: Hopefully none of your sources are TV! (Just turn the damn thing off - you'll be better for it...)
There are a couple of overseas news sites that are pretty good to follow. Russia Today (really!), and the Asia Times are both fairly unbiased. Unfortunately, Lauren Lyster left RT - her financial/economics stuff for them was fantastic. (Plus, she's hot! *laugh*)
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Shoju » Mon Feb 25, 2013 10:22 am

Klaudandus wrote:http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/02/22/vawa-2013_n_2742096.html

Fuck you, GOP


As far as this goes, I'm not surprised. It involves gaining grant money, and well... we know the republican house members opinions on that right? It's despicable, but I'm not surprised.


Klaudandus wrote:Wow... this is complete and utter crap
http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2013/0 ... rporations
A bill introduced by Montana state Rep. Steve Lavin would give corporations the right to vote in municipal elections...



This... Well, this just absolutely scares the shit out of me, opening the door to all sorts of really fucked up things that could happen. I'm glad it was tabled. I'm hoping someone took him for a mental exam.


Klaudandus wrote:http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2013/02/22/rick_perry_not_backing_off_opposition_to_medicaid_expansion_117133.html

Perry is basically saying that as a christian, he believes the best way to treat poor people who get sick is through miracles.


He's grandstanding. I've seen some news coming from Texas lately, that has me thinking the Dems are gaining some serious ground in the state. I think it could be a matter of time before there start to be some serious showdowns in the Texas Government (feel free to correct me if my "feeling" is not accurate.)
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Nooska » Mon Feb 25, 2013 11:31 am

I find CNN international (which is the only "US" news network we get) to be fairly neutral in its reporting of both international news and US news - with only the typical western mslant of things. (Being an ignorance of the cultural differences that means that f.ex. arabs generally differ rhetorically from western nations).
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby fuzzygeek » Mon Feb 25, 2013 11:36 am

Off the top of your head, to which party do 7 of the top 10 richest congresscritters belong?
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Klaudandus » Mon Feb 25, 2013 11:43 am

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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby fuzzygeek » Mon Feb 25, 2013 11:49 am

Klaudandus wrote:7 are democrats, 3 are republicans


We have a winner -- Did you know that, or did you google it just now? If you knew before, what was the context of learning that? I'm curious.

Looking it up kind of defeats the purpose of the question. I'd've been interested to see people's gut instincts. Oh well.

I had a conversation with a friend who's from Massachusetts and as Blue as Blue gets. He was decrying rich corporate old republican white guys overwhelming the government, and was quite startled to learn that rich republicans do not dominate. The bit about old white guys, however, is kind of true -- Feinstein is the only woman in the top 10.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Klaudandus » Mon Feb 25, 2013 12:00 pm

I had a hunch.

Then I googled it and confirmed it.

Still, the dems dont seem to go out of their way to screw the little guy, or the gays, or clamp down on evil vaginas...
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Jabari » Mon Feb 25, 2013 12:14 pm

Klaudandus wrote:Still, the dems dont seem to go out of their way to screw the little guy <snip>


Have you seen what the PPACA has done to small businesses and the "average guy"? With numbers?
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Koatanga » Mon Feb 25, 2013 12:33 pm

Speaking of health care, some idiots out there have been told by other idiots that vaccinations can cause autism, so they refuse to have their kids immunised.

I just want to say that they are FREAKING IDIOTS. Unfortunately, as a result of their idiocy, preventable diseases that could otherwise be wiped out get spread around the population. My lovely daughter now has a very mild (because she's immunised) case of whooping cough.

That's like medieval crap that should have been stamped out along with the plague and the crusades. It's ridiculous that in this day and age people should be able to catch something that has had a vaccine for ages.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby bldavis » Mon Feb 25, 2013 1:01 pm

even if they were tied to autism, you can lead a full and fairly normal life with autism

my sisters both have it and they are both in college, the younger one is in vet tech program
autism isnt a death sentence...all it means is life is a little more interesting
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Fridmarr » Mon Feb 25, 2013 1:23 pm

Koatanga

Fairly recently (within the last year) a lot of that vaccination stuff came to a head. Sadly, a lot of the autism fear via vaccinations was started through flawed research.

The main researcher was recently throughly discredited and I believe it was shown that not only was the research faulty, but he also falsified data.

Unfortunately, a lot of damage was done, and too many people opted out of vaccines.  Hopefully that's a trend that is reversing now that the data shows that there is no link.  (Sorry, I forget the researcher's name, but I'm sure google will give you lots of data about him if you care to search on the topic.)
 
Whooping cough probably wouldn't be eradicated by vaccines since that's not a permanent vaccine, but I totally get where you are coming from.  The measles is another one of those preventable diseases that has managed to flare up every now and again with the laxed attitudes towards vaccines.
 
I'm sorry your daughter has it, it sucks.  I hope it stays mild and goes away quickly.
 
 
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby fuzzygeek » Mon Feb 25, 2013 2:18 pm

Koatanga wrote:That's like medieval crap that should have been stamped out along with the plague and the crusades. It's ridiculous that in this day and age people should be able to catch something that has had a vaccine for ages.


Should the government be able to mandate vaccinations?
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Klaudandus » Mon Feb 25, 2013 2:24 pm

I know this sounds pretty close to "A Modest Proposal" but maybe we did wrong with coming up with vaccinations.

Population has skyrocketed. Life expectancy is as high as it has ever been... We're about 6.2 billion people are the number keeps going up.

Disease was one of nature's ways to keep us in check... It's like all those niche ecosystems that have been ruined either because some rats, some rabbits or some cats landed into an island where they have no natural predators...

Germs were our natural predators... and eventually the Red Queen is gonna strike us back with a vengeance.

But I digress, so... politics... hmmm... *rummages thru his feeds*
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http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/02/2 ... f=politics
Montana Tea Party Leader's rather interesting facebook post
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Cogglamp » Mon Feb 25, 2013 3:05 pm

Growth rates have been consistently falling since the 1950s. Much of the Western world is already below a fertility rate of 2.1.

Most of the growth is happening in developing nations and as they become more wealthy you're going to see the fertility rate fall drastically as health and longevity of life increase.

While this may put pressure on resources, you have a falling consumption index in the Western world as they gray and die out. It will put enormous pressure on our healthcare and entitlement programs in the short run but we're dramatically slowing down our consumption simply based on fewer babies being born into a consumer society.

The population is supposed to stabilize at 10 billion by 2100.

Other than burying our sickly and malformed children on top of a hill like the Spartans, I'm not sure what you're proposing here. Shall we re-introduce polio and small pox back into the world?
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Fridmarr » Mon Feb 25, 2013 3:22 pm

fuzzygeek wrote:
Koatanga wrote:That's like medieval crap that should have been stamped out along with the plague and the crusades. It's ridiculous that in this day and age people should be able to catch something that has had a vaccine for ages.


Should the government be able to mandate vaccinations?

What about criminal responsibility for spreading such a disease if you choose to forego the vaccine?
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Nooska » Mon Feb 25, 2013 5:49 pm

While vaccinations don't cause autism (and yeah, autism spectrum disorders are not a death sentence - I have Aspergers, my son has been diagnosed with PDD-NOS - my mom thinks its a detahsentence and tries her darnedest to convince people that I don't have ASP, and my son doesn't have PDD-NOS, that we are just "gifted" people with "typical" "personality traits" - she scared to death of a diagnosis that can actually open up the help offers from the state and municipality *sigh*) - vaccinations can cause meningitis, though the severity of the vaccination caused meningitis is lower than the meningitis you risk getting from the childrens disease (can't remember which one it is off the top of my head).

That said, I don't think its productive (or ethical) to mandate vaccinations (of any kind), but I do believe in offering them free of charge (and am happy that the HPV vaccine was made free of charge for the years up to and including the finacees birth year - just sad that it hasn't yet been made available for males for free around here, since it also prevents - erhmm was it prostate and testicular cancer I think)
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Koatanga » Mon Feb 25, 2013 7:02 pm

I voted with my daughter. She's fully immunised with every vaccine offered here. She's a perfectly normal 7-yr-old, except she's tops of her class in maths, has a reading age of 13, swims competitively, and enjoys team sports as well. She's also has impeccable manners and is very kind and helpful to everyone around her.

We would like to take credit for her, and there is some evidence that her brains come genetically, but we realise we just got one of the good ones.

The very thought that she could get meningitis sends chills down my spine. I could not imagine how different her life, and all our lives, would be if she lost her arms and legs - or her life - to that horrific disease. How someone could allow the chance of that happening just because of some hokum about autism is completely beyond me. Even if there was a chance of her getting autism from the vaccine, it's still better than a chance of getting meningitis.

The idiots who don't get vaccinated are usually protected by "herd immunity" which is the concept that if you are surrounded by people who don't get the disease and therefore don't spread the disease, you won't get it even if you are not immunised. This reinforces the idea that you don't have to get your kids immunised, which is a bunch of crap. It's those kids who keep these diseases in circulation.

I really hate irresponsible parents.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby fuzzygeek » Mon Feb 25, 2013 8:04 pm

Nooska wrote:That said, I don't think its productive (or ethical) to mandate vaccinations (of any kind), but I do believe in offering them free of charge (and am happy that the HPV vaccine was made free of charge for the years up to and including the finacees birth year - just sad that it hasn't yet been made available for males for free around here, since it also prevents - erhmm was it prostate and testicular cancer I think)


What about incentives? Like, tax credits for vaccinating your hellspawn?
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby aureon » Mon Feb 25, 2013 8:51 pm

Fridmarr wrote:They're basically the same. MSNBC is open about it, but they aren't any different than the others in degree either. A mile...seriously? A few months ago, in this very thread, it was like pulling teeth to get you to acknowledge MSNBC leaned left at all. "no democratic equivalent to fox news" despite MSNBC's obvious intent to be just that. They're pretty obviously not a mile away from Fox and they don't want to be either.

It stands to reason then that NBC doesn't fall to far from the MSNBC tree, especially with Matthew's hosting shows there too. Good grief just look at that dude's past, it's not exactly a primer on journalistic ethics. I actually like Matthews, but lets not pretend he doesn't obviously have an agenda.

I mentioned ABC's prime political figure Stephanopoulos earlier, he's a former Dukakis and Clinton campaign strategist. He became one of Clinton's policy advisers and semi press secretary, his allegiances are pretty clear. I could go on through daytime programming and the rest. The broadcast stations are a little more tame overall, but just because they don't spend a lot of time on politics, but when they do they have their own issues.

You can follow the media watch dog groups it you want, both sides have them. Granted they are biased too and are looking for a specific bent, but they have absolutely no shortage of garbage to sort through and they do tear apart plenty of nonsense. It's hard to objectively look at what the mainstream media is regularly producing and single out one station as if there is not a whole ton crap all around.


Reality leans left.
That's the problem you think media has in America.
I mean, as i understand, Marx is considered the devil in America, of Stalininian proportions. Overseas, that's normally enough to shock someone into "Wow, sure the Americans don't even know what left is".
There is one party, in your country, which refuses to acknowledge facts, and one party that more or less comes to terms with them.
When the media sites with the party that actually acknowledges facts, it isn't because it's "Biased" towards that party: It's because the fact tell that said party is right, and the other party is wrong.
When ignoring facts becomes an habit, the fact that media more-or-less consistently sides with one side, can make you think the media is biased, but that's not necessarily true. It can be, of course, but the definition of "biased" is not "consistently gives one side the upper hand", but rather "twists the facts to make their side look better", which is not exactly a behavior i see taken to the extremes of Fox News.

PS: Yes, We have gone through random Fox/MSNBC articles the round before, and that wasn't very convincing.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Klaudandus » Mon Feb 25, 2013 9:09 pm

aureon wrote:Reality leans left.


Colbert actually said it in his show "Reality has a well-known liberal bias" XD

Conversely, so does science...
http://prospect.org/article/reality-bites
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